If you do decide to go with the Tyre prophecy, you (and others) may find a copy of a recent debate I had with a fellow, useful/interesting. Several references.
Note: This is very long. Also, sometimes the gloves are taken off.
************************* Khome< Nothing remains but rubble. Much of it was used by Alexander (as prophesied) to build a land bridge to the city.
Dar< Wrong. No scripture mentions a three century later Alexander. Please provide a single Bible scripture that mentions him. You can't. Nebuchadrezzar was the only one specifically cited as being the one to destroy Tyre. Contrary to the prophecy HE FAILED to capture the seat of grandeur, the Island. Ezekiel even admits this in chapter 29:18 "Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyrus: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was peeled: yet had he no wages, nor his army, for Tyrus, for the service that he had served against it:"
Yet Tyre remained for centuries after Nebuchadnezzar's death.
Khome< Every city that was prophesied to rebuild came up from the original site's foundation. Not only has this not happened with Tyre, but the excellent water source for the ancient town is not even used. And to boot, the new city which bears the old one's name was established down the coast.
Dar< "Established" being the operative word here.
Khome< It is no more Tyre of the Bible than Troy, Michigan is Hector's.
Dar< Troy being half way around the world. False analogy. What a joke.
Khome< To use the old city's name means nothing since it is NOT the old city at all.
Dar< Lets examine the prophecies given by Ezekiel: "Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee... Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings,... AND HE shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with HIS axes HE shall break down thy towers... HE shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. WITH THE HOOFS OF HIS HORSES SHALL HE TREAD DOWN ALL THY STREETS... and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. ...thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; THOU SHALT BE BUILT NO MORE: for I the LORD have spoken it,... For thus saith the Lord God; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee; I will make thee a terror, and **THOU SHALT BE NO MORE** THOUGH THOU BE SOUGHT FOR, YET SHALT THOU NEVER BE FOUND AGAIN, saith the Lord God. Ezek. 26:3, 7, 9-11, 14, 19, 21
The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and NEVER SHALT BE ANY MORE. Ezek. 27:36
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and NEVER SHALT THOU BE ANY MORE. Ezek. 28:19
That is what Ezekiel said, here is what history records. The New Encyclopedia Britannica (Micropedia, vol. 10) gives this with regard to the history of Tyre: "...and in 585-573 (B.C.) it successfully withstood a prolonged siege by the Babylonian King Nebuchadrezzar II" (p.223).
The Encyclopedia Americana (Vol. 27 1984) says: "The neo-Babylonian conqueror, Nebucha-dnezzar II, subjected the island to a 13-year siege (585-572) without success" (p. 331)
Well that part flopped. The Bible later concedes as much: "Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyrus: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was peeled: yet had he no wages, nor his army, for Tyrus, for the service that he had served against it: Ezekiel 29:18
My Oxford Companion to the Bible gives this: "The conquests of Alexander the Great led to the founding of many cities on the Greek model. In general, he respected the autonomy of city-states that had been loyal to him. His successors in Egypt, the Ptolemies, built Alexandria as a Macedonian-Greek city that was not only a capital but also became a great center of learning. The Seleucids of Syria founded Antioch and made it the capital of their large empire. Older cities such as TYRE AND SIDON CONTINUED TO BE COMMERCIALLY IMPORTANT. [caps mine]
That is, well after Alexander (which was about three centuries after Nebuchadnezzar failed to fulfill the prophecy), Tyre continued to be commercially important. If only Ezekiel had prophesied this... he didn't.
Anyone who reads the rather extensive account of the History of Tyre in the Anchor Bible Dictionary (volume 6, p. 686-691) can see that the future that Tyre experienced in no way relates it to the future that Ezekiel prophesied for it.
Some more excerpts from my Oxford Companion to the Bible under Phoenicia (p. 592)
"...there was a natural tendency for the various city-states to include some of that hinterland in their territory. This was certainly true in the case of Tyre, whose territory at times included parts of Galilee (1 Kings 9:11; see also Josephus, Ant. 5.1.63).
Dar< Ahh... so Tyre was not as "fixed" as you would hope. It in fact included the area that the city now exists at (Tyre's population is currently 14,000).
Also the Island, now expanded into a peninsula is there too. It can be found, contrary to what Ezekiel saw in his cracked crystal ball. I recall reading recently (I think in the Anchor Bible Dictionary. Might have been in Bible Archaeology Review) where they recently discovered intricate inlaid marble and other signs of wealth on the island, dated from several centuries AFTER Alexander.
More: "...As Alexander the Great began his conquest of the East, Tyre offered stout resistance to his advance on Egypt but was eventually destroyed in 332 BCE. In line with later Hellenistic policy, however, these cities, as well as Acco/Ptolemais closer to Jewish territory, were reestablished as Greek city-states and became important centers for the diffusion of Greek culture in Palestine and Syria. The games at Tyre in honor of Zeus Olympus were highly regarded, and some Jews, contrary to their religious beliefs, were tempted to participate (2 macc. 4:18). Nevertheless, inscriptions show that Phoenician as well as Greek was spoken in Tyre as late as the first century BCE."
Dar< What? Five to six hundred years later and the city that was to "BE NO MORE THOUGH THOU BE SOUGHT FOR, YET SHALT THOU NEVER BE FOUND AGAIN" is hosting the games. Quite a seer that Ezekiel. He could have made a mint on the market.
"Under the Romans, the various cities in Phoenician territory **continued as they had been,** but now as part of the network of urban centers that Rome utilized in controlling the east..."
Dar< Whoa, continued as they had been. I thought it was "to be no more." Nothing like infallible Bible prophecy.
"Tyrian shekel, because of its stability in a volatile currency market, remained the offering for the sanctuary in Jerusalem that every male Jew was expected to make throughout the Second Temple period, and recent archaeological evidence from Upper Galilee gives abundant evidence of the trading links that religiously conservative Jewish population continued to have with Tyre in the early centuries CE..."
Dar< Into the early centuries CE and the Tyre is humming right along. Same shekel, same people, same name.
I think Ezekiel (or whoever wrote this) overstated his prophecy.
************And a little later...
KHome<<I'll just throw away all the stuff that I learned while visiting ancient Tyre and the rest of the middle east because Dar deems it B.S. I said "ancient Tyre." The ruins, mostly rubble under water. Never was rebuilt. Never was seen again.>>
Dar< "Never rebuilt ...never seen again." This is the B.S. to which I referring, not your scuba trip.
Khome< What is a city?? Is it a NAME alone?? Use your common sense. It is not the name that is or makes the city.
Dar< No, it is not name alone. Honesty should compel you to admit there is MUCH more than just a name in common going on here! (i.e. there is a Paris Arkansas, obviously not connected to the one in France.) I give many references which demonstrate this.
Khome< Ancient Tyre, other than its ruins, was never built upon, is not there. Nothing but rubble exists.
Dar< Not according to the encyclopedias and atlases I have examined and have quoted from (see also below). From the Anchor Bible Dictionary (pg. 691)
"Archaeological finds also include one of the largest hippodromes from the Roman period and a porticoed street that measures over 170 meters long and 11 meters wide. The street located on the S part of the ISLAND, has a 2ND CENTURY MOSAIC PAVEMENT COMPOSED OF GEOMETRIC PATTERNS, as well as a double colonnade of IMPORTED cipollion or white green-veined marble. Nearby, an impressive marble statue of Hadrian with tunic, cuirass, and paludamentum was discovered. Of particular interest for the 1ST CENTURY is an inscription of two agoranomoi, or market overseers, dating to the 60's C.E. In this, Gaius Julius Jucundus appears to be a Roman citizen in charge of citizenship." etc... etc.
Imported mosaic pavement being laid on the ISLAND four hundred years AFTER Alexander? Seven hundred years after Neb was supposed to do his thing? And what were those blasted citizens doing there? Poor Ezekiel, just a spinning in his grave.
Khome< A city has sprung up down the coast with the same name.
Dar< Yes, Tyre was rebuilt. Interestingly, NONE of the encyclopedias I have examined even mention Tyre being moved, they just speak one continuous history for the city of Tyre. This history continues millennia after Ezekiel. Perhaps this is because the word "Tyre" actually covers quite an area. Something you have not addressed.
Khome< Nothing resembles the Tyre of the Bible.
Dar< Yes, considering it was established over four thousand years ago, we should not be surprised to find it now has T.V.'s, telephones etc... . My atlas shows they have an airport too. Hell, some of its residence may be on AOL.
Khome< None of the status, none of the Trade...
Dar< We are dealing with a prophecy that predicted, "thou trade shall taper off over the next few millennia and thy trade will subsist of small boats 2500 YEARS HENCE." That would have been accurate.
Khome< (except for fishing), none of the wealth, not the spoken LANGUAGE
Dar< "Language." Yes, Tyre fell in 636 (approximately 1000 years after Ezekiels prophetic attempts) to the Muslim Arabians and was gradually Arabicized and Islamized. (Encyclopedia Americana). Not that it matters, but probably very few locations in the world speak the same language today that was current 2 to 3 thousand years ago.
Khome< or WRITING, none of the CULTURE, none of the Royalty..............etc.
Dar< All things irrelevant to the points of Ezekiel to which I refer. Yes the culture has changed many times. Probably will continue to.
How many millenniums do you give Ezekiel to get it right? I have showed repeatedly that Tyre continued to remain important long after Neb, and long after Alexander.
Again: "The conquests of Alexander the Great led to the founding of many cities on the Greek model... Older cities such as TYRE AND SIDON CONTINUED TO BE COMMERCIALLY IMPORTANT. (Oxford
Companion to the Bible)
I would say that Tyre is probably important to the some 23,000 people that live there. EACH AND EVERYONE ONE OF THEM A TESTAMENT TO EZEKIELS FAILED PROPHECY.
I love those people. I would love to buy one of their boats. Hope they live long and prosper.
(Earlier I stated a 14,000 population figure for Tyre. The Encyclopedia Americana gives the 1982 estimate population for Tyre as 23,000)
khome< The Tyre of the Bible cannot be found and has been forgotten by all except those who are involved in some way with History.
Dar< And those who look at a map. Or buy a boat there. (Love those people.)
Khome< The prophesy has been fulfilled except to the Atheistic literalists who will pervert or otherwise twist the commonsense meaning and reality of this prophesy to fit their pretext.
Dar< The prophecy has failed except for mind numbed fundamentalist bibliolators who attempt (and fail) to twist and pervert the straight forward meaning of words in order to save a failed prophecy.
Once again the failed prophecies we are dealing with:
**THOU SHALT BE NO MORE** THOUGH THOU BE SOUGHT FOR, YET SHALT THOU NEVER BE FOUND AGAIN, saith the Lord God. Ezek. 26: 21
The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and NEVER SHALT BE ANY MORE. Ezek. 27:36
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and NEVER SHALT THOU BE ANY MORE. Ezek. 28:19
This is great. I have been learning a lot about Tyre. Not from Khome who
has not quoted a single source
or even referred to one of mine. Perhaps he glosses over them. Rather, I have
learned from encyclopedias. I
looked up some more today. Very interesting. Here are some new assorted
excerpts:
>From a large Christian Encyclopedia (damn, didn't write down the name, pg.
1603)
Tyre, Tyrus. The principal seaport on the Phoenician coast, about 40 km S of Sidon and 45 N of Akko, Tyre (mod. Sur; Heb. sor; Assyr. Sur(r)r; Egypt. Daru; Gk. Tyros)...
Dar< Thus "Sur" is just Greek for Tyre. The Rand McNally "Todays world Atlas" has two names at the peninsula, "Sur, Tyre," as does the Time Atlas.
The golden age of Tyre was actually over long before Ezekiel: "Tyre reached the height of fame around 1000 B.C. and maintained its preeminent position until about 774." (Encyclopedia Americana, pg. 331).
Seems like Tyre (like many ancient cities) got schmucked every couple hundred years: "The port suffered another blow in 841 BC, when, in his 18th regnal year, Shalmaneser III of Assyria received tribute from Ba'alimanzar at the same time as Jehu paid him homage at the Nahr-el-kelb." "According to Josephus (ant. 9. 283), Shalmaneser V of Assyria (whose own records are wanting) laid siege to Tyre in 724, and the city fell with Samaria into the hands of Sargon II in 722 BC... in 664 BC the city fell to Ashurbanipal, who made Azi-ball king,..."
Then Neb in 587. "In 332 BC Alexander the Great laid siege to the island port for 7 months and captured it only by building a mole to the island fortress. Despite heavy losses, THE PORT SOON RECOVERED UNDER SELEUCID PATRONAGE. HEROD I REBUILT THE MAIN TEMPLE, which would have been standing when our Lord[sic] visited the district bordering Tyre and Sidon (Mt. 15:21-28; Mk. 7:24-31)... Christians were active in Tyre in the 1st century (Acts 21:3-6), and there the scholar Origen was buried (AD 254). (Christian enc. pg. 1605)
>From the Encyclopedia Americana:
"he [Alexander] captured and destroyed Tyre. About 10,000 of its citizens
were slaughtered, and 30,000
sold into slavery. AFTER A BRIEF PERIOD, HOWEVER, THE CITY ROSE AGAIN TO
WEALTH
AND POWER. In 125 B.C., the Seleucied successors of Alexander recognized its
autonomy. In the Roman
period, which was inaugurated by Pompey's conquest of the land in 64-63 BC.,
it acquired fresh fame as a
center for the manufacture and export of silk, silk garments, glass, and
TYRIAN soil. Christianity struck
early roots in Tyrian soil. Jesus Christ visited... It subsequently became
the seat of a bishopric... In 323 the
church historian Eusebius preached a sermon that is still extant at the
consecration of a later and grander
basilica.
With neighboring cities, Tyre fell to the Muslim Arabians in 636, and was gradually Arabicized and Islamized. In 1124 it was captured by the Crusaders, but in 1291 it reverted to Muslim rule and was reduced almost to ashes--a blow from which it never fully recovered. II. Archaeology "The main extant ruins date from the fall of the Crusader city in AD 1291..."
Dar< That is, when khome speaks of rubble (presumably on the island, although he is careful not to specify where his Tyre is) he is talking about the rubble made almost two millennia AFTER this Ezekiel sucked his last breath. Ezekiel must have meant Tyre "never shalt be anymore" in the same way that Jesus meant "Behold, I come quickly." (Rev. 3:11), Har har, and we know how accurate that was. They both have failed of course. Yes Tyre was destroyed (many times) and contrary to Ezekiel assertions WAS REBUILT and existed for thousands of years after. Even if Khome could disregard the rebuilt mainland Tyre (which is absurd), the tiny Island itself had many many centuries (700+) of history following Ezekiel.
And Jesus? Well, some Christians still wait.
************* And a little later... Khome< Dar continues to take pieces of the full prophesy and squeeze them into his pretext.
Dar< I suppose I did not type out the entire book of Ezekiel. There is no squeezing required. It is rather straight forward what was prophesied by Ezekiel. There is no context you can give that can soften the absolute statements made against Tyre in Ezekiel, chapter 26.
Khome< You may applaud him for that. He does it well (with the help of his skeptic/Atheist apologetics library).
Dar< Regarding my library. This is patently false. None of my references given in this series could be considered skeptic or atheist. In fact most of it has been from Christian sources. Oxford Companion to the Bible -- (Christian) Anchor Bible Dictionary -- (Christian) Unspecified Christian Encyclopedia -- (Christian). I could call the library if you must have the name of this one. Encyclopedia Americana -- (undoubtedly a bunch of atheists...) Brittanica -- (ditto) World Book Encyclopedia (see below)
<<his sceptic/Atheist apologetics library)>>
What a joke
There was however one quote I missed that I had written out on the back of a photo-copy of another. It is from that skeptic/atheist encyclopedia set, World Book, pg. 542:
"Alexander conquered the city in 332 B.C. and built a road from the mainland to the Island, creating a peninsula from which the present town of Tyre --also called Sur-- stands."
Khome < He neglects very key parts (as most literalists do). I challenge whoever reads this to look at the prophesy as a whole.
Dar< I notice you do not give a "key part." Yes, read all of Ezekiel chapter 26, most of which I have already posted, several times.
Khome< I have about half of the 2 1/2 chap's (thought by thought and line by line) analyzed for your examination. I will post the completed work when finished.
Dar< Oh gawd, can you do revelation next? What is this going to accomplish, put everyone to sleep? Yawn...
Actually, I can't think of a much more useless waste of hard drive space than someone's personal line by line interpretation of a bunch of Ezekiel babble.
This is chaff folks. What Khome needs to do is make the 23,000+ present day Tyrians disappear... as in poof.
I submit, Khome is no David Copperfield.
Khome< What is the best way to make this information available, Dar?
Dar< I don't know. E-mail? (a e-mail letter will hold about 10 pages, 26k I think). Upload as a file? Create a new file category and call it "khome discovers new interpretation of Ezekiel prophecy."
I really don't think it will have much if any bearing on the specific failed Tyre pronouncements. You may be able to spin some of the foggy hazy parts of Ezekiel into something but I really can't imagine it being useful to you. It seems like, since you can't make Tyre go away, you are going to try to adjust/spin the prophecies.
My very Christian Oxford RSV has this at beginning of the book of Ezekiel: "The original collection was rewritten and expanded by an editor [hmmm... interesting and convenient feature in a prophetic work!], but Ezekiel's beautiful prose and poetry may be recognized thoughout the book. The text has suffered much in transmission; as a consequence, the interpretation is frequently uncertain." [brackets mine]
You may be able to play with some of the uncertainty (just as preachers play with the babble in revelation, and the new agers play with Nostradamus's unintelligable quatrains), but you will not massage the dogmatic pronouncements "thou shalt be built no more" and "never shalt thou be any more" into the reality of a 20th century that continues to have a Tyre in it. ***************** END
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Darrel