You recently said:
<<I've debated Tyre myself in the past and like it primarily because the Bible is quite clear on the time frame of fulfillment and also because there is a lot of historical support for the failure of the Biblical prophecy in this area.>>
Do happen to have it in your computer files? If you do could you please send me some/any of the information you have? Especially regarding the time frame.
After a month of silence, this fellow has put together another response on the Tyre prophecies. I will include it here. He seems to be happy with the taking a couple of millenia to kinda "partially" fulfill Ezekiel's prophecy.
Any observations would be helpful.
I have posted this to the list in case anyone else has some useful information/points.
Cheers to all,
Darrel
*************************Tyre Apologetic --Long
Subj: Prophesy of Tyre, page 1 Date: 95-08-04 17:53:33 EDT From: KHome 1
Let's look at the prophesy in its entirety. Dardedar takes a very shallow look at this emmense and far reaching (as time is concerned) prophesy. He takes only those scriptures that will support the pretext that this prophesy is wrong.
1 x And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the first [day] of the month, [that] the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken [that was] the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, [now] she is laid waste:
The Tyre spoken of here was an ancient city-state. Tyre boasted of Jerusalem's demise (the exile). Now that Jerusalem is in ruins, Tyre will take advantage of the situation and prosper.
3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
"MANY nations," it says. More than just one (Nebuchadnezzar) would be involved in the devastation of Tyre. In just under 2,000 years, Macedonians, Greeks, Assyrians, Persians, neighboring city-states, crusaders, and ultimately, the Muslims destroyed Biblical Tyre.
4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.
Neb' destroyed the mainland part (572). Alexander destroyed the island part (332). The island part of the city was scraped bare "like the top of a rock." It still is. This expression, "scrape her dust from her" is like saying "kicking butt and taking names."
5 It shall be [a place for] the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.
Nets are spread all over the ruins of Tyre. It was spoiled by all the invading armies over the centuries. All the business that once flowed into its harbors went elsewhere (mainly to the port of Alexandria). Inhabitants were sold into slavery.
6 And her daughters which [are] in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.
With every destruction, until its final demise in 1291 AD, there was massive loss of civilian life (as is recorded by casualty figures available from the different chroniclers). (The "field" indicates, evidently, the mainland.)
7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.
The mention of one of the FIRST conquerers of Tyre.
8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.
9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.
The "field" indicates the mainland. Neb' laid seige just as this verse says.
10 By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.
It looks like they accomplished their mission. By the way, the word for "dust" here is different than the "dust" that is scraped off in verses 4, 12, and 30 . It is used to describe dust that settles when the ground is disturbed.
11 With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground.
Yup! That's what happened to the mainland city. But, during the siege, much of the mainland dwellers moved to the island. Let's see what happens to the island.
Subj: Prophesy of Tyre, page 2 Date: 95-08-04 17:54:37 EDT From: KHome 1
12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.
Alexander cames a few hundred years later ("And they..." not "he" refering to the previous verse about ole Neb'. Zeek is going back to his main prophesy about the nations being brought against Tyre). He (Alexander) uses the rubble of the mainland ruins to build a causway (still seen in part today).
13 And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.
14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be [a place] to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.
Yup! The place they "spread nets upon" looks like the top of a rock and was not built again!
15 x Thus saith the Lord GOD to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee?
16 Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at [every] moment, and be astonished at thee.
17 And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, [that wast] inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror [to be] on all that haunt it!
Look at that last line, "...the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants,..." this is the city that is being spoken of, not Tyre today.
18 Now shall the isles tremble in the day of thy fall; yea, the isles that [are] in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure.
19 For thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;
Yes, this is what has happened to the island part of the city.
20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;
This Tyre of renown will be as ruins of other dead cities.
21 I will make thee a terror, and thou [shalt be] no [more]: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.
The Tyre of this prophesy exists no longer. Just as Rome exists, but the Rome that was then is not the Rome that is now. The Tyre of this prophesy cannot be found today. It is dead.
The following verses describe the Tyre that will be no longer. It describes a Tyre that was world renown for many things.
1 x The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 Now, thou son of man, take up a lamentation for Tyrus;
3 And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, [which art] a merchant of the people for many isles,...
It is no longer this.
...Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I [am] of perfect beauty.
4 Thy borders [are] in the midst of the seas, thy builders have perfected thy beauty.
5 They have made all thy [ship] boards of fir trees of Senir: they have taken cedars from Lebanon to make masts for thee.
These are all gone.
Subj: Prohesy of Tyre, page 3 Date: 95-08-04 17:55:46 EDT From: KHome 1
6 [Of] the oaks of Bashan have they made thine oars; the company of the Ashurites have made thy benches [of] ivory, [brought] out of the isles of Chittim.
No longer.
7 Fine linen with broidered work from Egypt was that which thou spreadest forth to be thy sail; blue and purple from the isles of Elishah was that which covered thee.
This is no longer, too.
8 The inhabitants of Zidon and Arvad were thy mariners: thy wise [men], O Tyrus, [that] were in thee, were thy pilots. 9 The ancients of Gebal and the wise [men] thereof were in thee thy calkers: all the ships of the sea with their mariners were in thee to occupy thy merchandise.
10 They of Persia and of Lud and of Phut were in thine army, thy men of war: they hanged the shield and helmet in thee; they set forth thy comeliness.
This is not the case for the new city which BEARS ancient Tyre's name.
11 The men of Arvad with thine army [were] upon thy walls round about, and the Gammadims were in thy towers: they hanged their shields upon thy walls round about; they have made thy beauty perfect.
No longer. This prophesy goes on about the Tyre that is to be no longer.
12 Tarshish [was] thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all [kind of] riches; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs.
13 Javan, Tubal, and Meshech, they [were] thy merchants: they traded the persons of men and vessels of brass in thy market.
14 They of the house of Togarmah traded in thy fairs with horses and horsemen and mules. 15 The men of Dedan [were] thy merchants; many isles [were] the merchandise of thine hand: they brought thee [for] a present horns of ivory and ebony.
16 Syria [was] thy merchant by reason of the multitude of the wares of thy making: they occupied in thy fairs with emeralds, purple, and broidered work, and fine linen, and coral, and agate.
17 Judah, and the land of Israel, they [were] thy merchants: they traded in thy market wheat of Minnith, and Pannag, and honey, and oil, and balm.
18 Damascus [was] thy merchant in the multitude of the wares of thy making, for the multitude of all riches; in the wine of Helbon, and white wool.
19 Dan also and Javan going to and fro occupied in thy fairs: bright iron, cassia, and calamus, were in thy market.
20 Dedan [was] thy merchant in precious clothes for chariots.
21 Arabia, and all the princes of Kedar, they occupied with thee in lambs, and rams, and goats: in these [were they] thy merchants.
22 The merchants of Sheba and Raamah, they [were] thy merchants: they occupied in thy fairs with chief of all spices, and with all precious stones, and gold.
23 Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, [and] Chilmad, [were] thy merchants.
24 These [were] thy merchants in all sorts [of things], in blue clothes, and broidered work, and in chests of rich apparel, bound with cords, and made of cedar, among thy merchandise.
25 The ships of Tarshish did sing of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas.
26 x Thy rowers have brought thee into great waters: the east wind hath broken thee in the midst of the seas.
27 Thy riches, and thy fairs, thy merchandise, thy mariners, and thy pilots, thy calkers, and the occupiers of thy merchandise, and all thy men of war, that [are] in thee, and in all thy company which [is] in the midst of thee, shall fall into the midst of the seas in the day of thy ruin.
Read this last line again..."Thy riches, and thy fairs, thy merchandise, thy mariners, and thy pilots, thy calkers, and the occupiers of thy merchandise, and all thy men of war, that [are] in thee, and in all thy company which [is] in the midst of thee, **shall fall into the midst of the seas in the day of thy ruin."** This is what the prophesy is about. This is what Tyre was and is not this any longer.
Subj: Prophesy of Tyre, page 4 Date: 95-08-04 17:56:49 EDT From: KHome 1
28 The suburbs shall shake at the sound of the cry of thy pilots. 29 And all that handle the oar, the mariners, [and] all the pilots of the sea, shall come down from their ships, they shall stand upon the land;
30 And shall cause their voice to be heard against thee, and shall cry bitterly, and shall cast up dust upon their heads, they shall wallow themselves in the ashes:
31 And they shall make themselves utterly bald for thee, and gird them with sackcloth, and they shall weep for thee with bitterness of heart [and] bitter wailing.
32 And in their wailing they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and lament over thee, [saying], What [city is] like Tyrus, like the destroyed in the midst of the sea?
Yup. It was really unfathomable to the people of that day that a city of Tyre's stature would fall to nothing. Kind of like those who would never have suspected the stock market crash in the 20's.
This prophesy goes on to tell of the Tyre that will be destroyed.
33 When thy wares went forth out of the seas, thou filledst many people; thou didst enrich the kings of the earth with the multitude of thy riches and of thy merchandise.
This does not happen with the present city that bares the old one's name.
Kind of like my son who bears my name, he is not me, yet we are the same blood, look similar, live in the same area (the same house, actually). Tyre of the Bible has never been rebuilt/resurrected and cannot be found today, only a small insignificant (in comparison) city that bears the old one's name.
34 In the time [when] thou shalt be broken by the seas in the depths of the waters thy merchandise and all thy company in the midst of thee shall fall.
This happened.
35 All the inhabitants of the isles shall be astonished at thee, and their kings shall be sore afraid, they shall be troubled in [their] countenance.
36 The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt be] any more.
It is "never any more." Tyre of the Bible has been destroyed as prophesied.
Now Zeek likens the ruler of Tyre to be as Satan succumbing to degenerate pride.
1 x The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart [is] lifted up, and thou hast said, I [am] a God, I sit [in] the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou [art] a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 Behold, thou [art] wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom [and] by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Because of this "heart condition" of Tyre, the following is a recap of what will happen to Tyre.
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas.
This happened on several occassions.
Subj: Prophesy of Tyre, page 5 Date: 95-08-04 17:57:49 EDT From: KHome 1
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I [am] God? but thou [shalt be] a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee. 10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.
This happened.
The following clarifies the ruler of Tyre as being like prideful Satan, one who was in the Garden of Eden.
11 x Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Yup. Sounds like Satan to me.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Just as Satan was lifted up and brought down, so to will Tyre suffer the same fate.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
That is what happened.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.
All the effort it took to describe what Tyre rose to in stature amongst the cities of the known world, and all the words written describing, actually defining what Tyre was shows clearly that this Tyre is no more. The Tyre of the Bible cannot be found at all except for the ruins. Common sense tells us that the dust/rubble scraped from it is an expression used to say that its destruction is complete. It was never built again.
Those who take as a pretext that all prophesy is a lie, especially the prophesy in the Bible, will only show their misguided attempts at obfuscating reality when they take this prophesy and twist it to fit into their Atheistic interpretation, which is clearly off base. (Atheists will probably say the same thing about me. One of us is wrong. I believe I have the Truth.) *******************************