You say: As for the timeframe, this can clearly be seen in Ezekiel 26:7, 14 which reads:
"For thus says the Lord God: 'Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariors, and with horsemen, and an army with many people." (7)
"'I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets, and you shall never be rebuilt, for I th Lord have spoken,' says the Lord God."
Clearly, the timeframe for the fulfillment of this prophecy must have been within the lifetime of Nebuchadnezzar, who campaigned against Tyre from 585-572 B.C. but failed to destroy it.
Dar< Of course the fundies draw attention the "many nations" referred to in verse 3. (see debate below)
Brian< Further, Ezekiel admits in 29:18-19 that his prophecy did not come true. If you have Farrell's "Prophecies: Imaginary and Unfulfilled" he does a very nice writeup of this whole prophetic fiasco, something that you should really take a look at.
Dar< Yes, I have several copies of this. It is very good but the section on Tyre is short. It does not deal directly with how the fundie tendency to allow millennia for any kind of fulfillment.
Thanks for any help/comments you can give.
Here is a response I put together last night.
Cheers,
Darrel
****
Well, we knew this was coming. Khome's line by line spin and restatement of scripture. He seems to think that if he says Tyre doesn't exist over and over again it will have some effect on reality. Emphasis through repetition (similar to the methodology of rosaries I guess). He was so enamored with his interpretations of Ezekiel that he thought he would impose the same five posts (with insignificant variation in the opening paragraph) on us again only two days later.
What riveting reading! (I was only joking about doing revelation next. Please...)
There is really nothing new here. The posts to which he is attempting to respond to can be found in the file "What contradictions." The date was 7/18. Perhaps I will repost them since they alone still demolish his assertions. He still never addressed my points or dealt with the many references I gave. Not one. He dismissed them as coming from "atheist sources." He also never withdrew this lie when I corrected him.
Let me get right to this new stuff now. Let me note at the outset the first reason why he cannot support a large part of these so called Ezekiel prophecies.
1.) Much of the Ezekiel he is quoting cannot be considered valid prophecy.
My very Christian Oxford RSV has this at beginning of the book of Ezekiel: "THE ORIGINAL COLLECTION WAS REWRITTEN AND EXPANDED BY AN EDITOR, but Ezekiel's beautiful prose and poetry may be recognized throughout the book. The text has suffered much in transmission; as a consequence, the interpretation is frequently uncertain." (pg. 1000)
I submit that if Jean Dixon could have an editor revise her work, AFTER an event that she had prophesied had taken place, her accuracy would be immeasurably improved. It is not unreasonable to ask that a prophecy be able to be verified as having been made before the event. In this case we in fact know this is not the case. The Ezekiel who supposedly makes the prophecy that Nebuchadrezzar will destroy Tyre (With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword... 26:11) is supposedly the same Ezekiel who records that Neb failed (...every head was made bald, and every shoulder was peeled: yet had he no wages, nor his army... Ezek 29:18.) (Note that Nebuchadrezzar is the ONLY person/king mentioned by name.)
What kind of prophecy is this? The guy was simply recording the event! This is known as a pious fraud, or prophecy after the fact. What mistakes in this pseudo-prophecy that Mr. Ezekiel didn't catch you would think the later editor would have corrected (poor editing I guess). So whenever khome refers to Neb as fulfilling anything, he is mistaken. He should read is "holy writ" more carefully. Most of the Ezekiel he has quoted can be called, non-prophecy.
My Oxford Companion the Bible says: "...in its heavy use of metaphorical language and avoidance of proper names for contemporary figures (curiously, "Ezekiel" occurs only twice: 1.1; 24:24), the book makes a somewhat disembodied impression. Accordingly, it is not surprising that both the locality of the prophet's ministry and the date of the book's composition--it has been dated variously from the age of Manasseh in the mid-seventh century BCE to the Hellenistic period--have long been controverted." (pg. 28)
Websters describes the Hellenistic period as ending with Alexander's death. This severely damages the idea that these verses are even valid prophecy.
However, that these passages are non-prophecy is not as important as the fact that the passages can be proven wrong. Even if we grant (and I will not) that Ezekiel wrote chapter 26 before Neb. attacked Tyre, and chapter 28 after (and there is good reason to not believe this) the fact is, there are statements made in chapter 26 that have clearly failed. This is what Khome has not dealt with.
The real problem is, contrary to scripture:
2.) Tyre still very much still exists.
During this debate I had earlier just accepted Khome's assertion that the Island part of Tyre was not currently inhabited. He said he had scuba dived there, had friends etc... etc...
I was content to argue that Tyre had been rebuilt at a nearby location and to note that all the encyclopedias speak of one continuous city of Tyre, all though history right to the present day (rather odd for a place that is not supposed to exist or be inhabited). I became suspicious when Kornform posted a telling quote from the Encyclopaedia Britannica said with regard to Tyre:
"The silted up harbor on the south side of the penninsula had been excavated by the Institut Francais d"Archeologie de Beyrouth, but MOST OF THE REMAINS OF THE PHOENICIAN PERIOD STILL LIE BENEATH THE PRESENT TOWN."
Kornform then continued: "So KHome's crap about the town being down the coast and the town never being found again and the town never being rebuilt are a complete pack of lies as the REBUILT town of Tyre, extant to this very day, lies on its former ruins and rubble as most towns to this very day so remain."
I thought perhaps Kornform was being hasty, after all, khome had scuba dived there etc... etc... and after all khome is a god fearing Christian, he wouldn't flat out lie? Would he?
I am always hesitant to call someone a liar unless there is no question about their error and motive. In this case however it is unrefutable. I have khome firmly by the short hairs and it is time to give a little twist. <<ouch>>
A picture is worth a thousand words and today (in my personal reference books) I found an aerial photograph of the island part of Tyre (actually now a peninsula). This picture demolishes khome's oft repeated lie that the Island is now uninhabited and scraped like a rock. Also the all time whopper that it was "never rebuilt." (Ezek. 26:14) This 4x6 photograph taken from the north shows that the Island is in fact covered with densely packed buildings and habitation. The southern part has some open area by the edges of the water (looks like beaches) but I would guess this does not total more than 10 to 15% of the Island. Beside the picture is a drawing showing the island Tyre before the causeway was built linking the Island to the mainland. The drawing shows the size of the causeway built by Alexander and also has a darkened in area to show the present causeway which is much wider and almost as wide as the Island itself (hence peninsula). As anyone can clearly see in the photograph, this area also is TOTALLY inhabited. The caption under the picture reads:
"An aerial view of Tyre, with the area around the causeway, which is now considerably filled in"
And inhabited, I would add.
Note: I WILL SEND A PHOTO-COPY OF THIS TO ANYONE WHO ASKS. Simply E-mail the snail- mail address you would like me to it send it to and I will send it off (obviously my e-mail address is: Dardedar@aol.com). I suppose I could fax it as well.
If you get a copy I suggest that it would be appropriate to print out and attach the following scriptures above the picture:
THOU SHALT BE NO MORE THOUGH THOU BE SOUGHT FOR, YET SHALT THOU NEVER BE FOUND AGAIN, saith the Lord God. Ezek. 26: 21
And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; THOU SHALT BE BUILT NO MORE: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord God. Ezek. 26:14
The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and NEVER SHALT BE ANY MORE. Ezek. 27:36
I'll now go though and some of his material. Note that in his rebut he does not cite not a SINGLE source to back up his assertions regarding the modern day Tyre (or to back up any assertions). Scuba trips doesn't get it. Personally, I have good reason for no longer taking Khome at his word on such matters.
**************** Khome< Let's look at the Ezekiel's prophesy concerning Tyre in its en-tyre-ty (Chap 26 through Chap 28:19). Mr. Dard takes a very shallow look at this emmense and far reaching (as time is concerned) prophesy. He takes only those scriptures that will support the pretext that this prophesy is wrong.
Dar< You shoot yourself in the foot right out of the gate. You admit that there are verses that "support the pretext that this prophesy is wrong"? I certainly agree that there are such verses. They are certainly the ones I am concerned with and that you must deal with. Why did your god write those ones?
Oh, if you could only make them go away. Alas, you cannot.
*********
3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
Khome< "MANY nations," it says. More than just one (Nebuchadnezzar) would be involved in the devastation of Tyre. In just under 2,000 years, Macedonians, Greeks, Assyrians, Persians, neighboring city- states, crusaders, and ultimately, the Muslims destroyed Biblical Tyre.
Dar< Neb is the only one mentioned by name.
Like most ancient cities Tyre was attacked many times before Ezekiel and after. It was always rebuilt. Please list the year that each one of these groups did what you say. Give a source. I don't trust you. I also think you are confused. The Assyrians were extending their sway "in the 9th and 8th centuries" BC according to the Encyclopedia Americana, (pg. 331). That is long before the supposed Ezekiel even existed! Hmmm... were his prophecies being fulfilled before he made them? How convenient.
In fact this encyclopedia also says:
"Tyre reached the height of fame around 1000 B.C. and maintained its preeminent position until about 774." (Encyclopedia Americana, pg. 331).
So, Tyre had already declined somewhat from its preeminent position even before Ezekiel's time. Ezekiel wasn't channeling Yahweh, he was reading the news! And making up stories, stories that did not come true I might add.
****
4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.
Khome< Neb' destroyed the mainland part (572). Alexander destroyed the island part (332). The island part of the city was scraped bare "like the top of a rock." It still is.
Dar< It is not. This is a bold faced lie. What address would you like me to send the picture too? Or perhaps you should get a library card.
5 It shall be [a place for] the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.
KHome< Nets are spread all over the ruins of Tyre. It was spoiled by all the invading armies over the centuries. All the business that once flowed into its harbors went elsewhere (mainly to the port of Alexandria). Inhabitants were sold into slavery.
Dar< Not spoiled for the people who still live there. Once again I find nothing profound with these fishing nets. This has long been a fishing area. Ezekiel no doubt observed people laying out nets and sat down to write a poem. He just thought to add "the LORD said at the end" and you, living by faith as you do, believed it!
They aren't laying nets on those multi-story buildings which cover approximately 90% of the island (now peninsula).
6 And her daughters which [are] in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.
Khome< With every destruction, until its final demise in 1291 AD, there was massive loss of civilian life (as is recorded by casualty figures available from the different chroniclers).
Dar< Yes, Alexander was a nasty fellow. He schmucked a lot of cities but there was no final demise. See picture. You need a final demise. The scripture calls for one. You don't have it.
****
7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.
Khome< The mention of one of the FIRST conquerers of Tyre.
Dar< The ONLY conqueror specifically named, who, incidentally, did not conquer Tyre:
The New Encyclopedia Britannica (Micropedia, vol. 10): "...and in 585-573 (B.C.) it successfully withstood a prolonged siege by the Babylonian King Nebuchadrezzar II" (p.223).
The Encyclopedia Americana (Vol. 27 1984) says: "The neo-Babylonian conqueror, Nebucha-dnezzar II, subjected the island to a 13-year siege (585-572) without success" (p. 331)
***
8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.
9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.
Khome< The "field" indicates the mainland. Neb' laid seige just as this verse says.
Dar< And Ezekiel watched it, and wrote it down. Some prophecy.
** Pg-2
*** 10 By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.
Khome< It looks like they accomplished their mission.
Dar< History. Not prophecy. Not accurate either. I thought the mission was to conquer Tyre? He failed. (Ezek 29:18) They just moved to the island which he NEVER got. A thirteen year siege, without capture is not mission accomplished.
11 With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground.
Khome< Yup! That's what happened to the mainland city. But, during the siege, much of the mainland dwellers moved to the island. Let's see what happens to the island.
Dar< Thus Neb's horses did NOT "tread down all thy streets." He did not take the island, which was the seat of Tyrian grandeur.
12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.
Khome< Alexander cames a few hundred years later ("And they..." not "he" refering to the previous verse about ole Neb'.
Dar< Two and a half centuries later. Why couldn't the inspired Ezekiel have provided this name? That would have been a neat trick. Regarding "they" I disagree. It is your wishful thinking and hindsight/revision that makes you want to without warrant, suddenly, in one verse, switch ahead two and a half centuries.
***
13 And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.
14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be [a place] to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.
Khome< Yup! The place they "spread nets upon" looks like the top of a rock and was not built again!
Dar< How can you say this? You must know it is false. Did you think I wouldn't check? The "thou shalt be built no more" is patently false.
***** (snip verses 15-16)
17 And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, [that wast] inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror [to be] on all that haunt it!
Khome< Look at that last line, "...the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants,..." this is the city that is being spoken of, not Tyre today.
Dar< Not that I should bother asking you a question because you NEVER answer them... but when are you suggesting that Tyre ceased to be Tyre? A thousand years after Neb? Two thousand? Two and a half thousand?
Is it perhaps coming sometime in the future? Like Jesus? (heh, heh)
18 Now shall the isles tremble in the day of thy fall; yea, the isles that [are] in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure.
19 For thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;
Khome< Yes, this is what has happened to the island part of the city.
Dar< That is not what happened to the island part of the city and anyone can prove this to themselves by looking at a picture of the current Tyre.
The game is up. If this debate were a video game, this is the point where you would need to be reaching for another quarter.
20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;
Khome< This Tyre of renown will be as ruins of other dead cities.
Dar< Note: "that thou be not inhabited..." Yet it is in fact inhabited, to this very day. Thus your pseudo- prophecy is falsified.
pg--3
21 I will make thee a terror, and thou [shalt be] no [more]: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.
Khome< The Tyre of this prophesy exists no longer. Just as Rome exists, but the Rome that was then is not the Rome that is now. The Tyre of this prophesy cannot be found today. It is dead.
Dar< Tell that to 23,000+ people that live there. (The Encyclopedia Americana 1982 estimate population for Tyre. Probably higher now.)
I will now take a break from rubbing your nose in this for a section. You have become redundant.
In your following pages you go on to chronicle the gradual decline of Tyre over the centuries and millennia. I have not denied this and there is nothing profound about this. Most if not all very ancient cities, even Egypt and Rome, (given thousands of years) have declined in relation to their former stature, and in relation to other larger super cities. I do deny that it that it was NOT found again (it was) and that it is no longer inhabited (it clearly is). Case closed.
You later you go on to analyze how Satan is compared with Tyre. This is totally irrelevant to the points I have raised. This just wastes bandwidth and puts many a diligent AOL reader to sleep. Course you can do this, but I was hoping for much more. I wanted you to make the present day people of Tyre magically disappear, as in <<Poof>>.
But that would take a miracle, and your gods can't do those any more.
You do conclude with:
Khome< The Tyre of the Bible cannot be found at all except for the ruins.
Dar< This is a shameless lie.
Khome< Common sense tells us that the dust/rubble scraped from it is an expression used to say that its destruction is complete. It was never built again.
Dar< Maybe I'll get a scanner and up-load the picture. It is truly a wonderful testament to failed prophecy.
Khome< Those who take as a pretext that all prophesy is a lie, especially the prophesy in the Bible,...
Dar< I never said all prophecy is a lie. However I do think that if a so called prophecy cannot withstand scrutiny, it can be discounted. I know of no Bible prophecy that passes muster. I know of many that cannot. Certainly this one cannot. Incidentally, all I need is one to falsify the doctrine of inerrancy.
Please feel free to post a Bible prophecy if you feel you have a strong one. We'll try to be gentle. <<ahem>>
Khome< One of us is wrong. I believe I have the Truth.)
Dar< Faith can work wonders for you mind but it can't make the false true. You will know which one of us is wrong if read Ezek. 26:14 and then look at a aerial view of the current day --very much existent-- Tyre.
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