> Yoel
> There is not enough information given in the
> Bible to know for certain that they are not the same place.
>
> (DAVE 5/6) Yoel: So why are you supporting Izzy and Farrell who say they
> weren't? How can I defend the fact that they weren't when we don't even
> know this is the case? You have proven my point anyway (it's good that
> someone' points are being supported here).
>
> Yoel
> But what
> information IS given would lead one to logically surmise that they are not,
> especially when one considers the Christian claim that this book is unlike
> any onther the "inspired" word of an omniscient deity. THERE IS NO
> INFORMATION GIVEN IN THE BIBLE which would indicate that Moseroth and Mt.
> Hor are the same place.
>
> (DAVE 5/6) Yoel: Agreed, except for one problem - the Bible does state
> that Aaron died in Moserath and on Mount Hor - I would say that the Bible is
> maiing the claim that they were the same place, wouldn't you? After all,
> Aaron can only die once.
TILL
This is typical of Dave's reasoning. He assumes that because two texts in
Numbers state that Aaron died on Mt. Hor and a text in Deuteronomy states
that he died at Moseroth, the Bible is therefore "making the claim that they
were the same place." Why does this conclusion follow? All reasonable
evidence points to separate authorship for Numbers and Deuteronomy, so it is
entirely reasonable to think that the author of Numbers knew of a tradition
that had Aaron dying on Mt. Hor, and the author of Deuteronomy knew of a
tradition that said that Aaron died at Moseroth.
In my postgraduate work, I took creative writing courses at Bradley
University in which students had to write short stories, which were
criticized by the whole class. I remember a long, long short story (long
enough to be called a novelette) that one student submitted in which she
gave a character blue eyes at the beginning, but later in the story, she
mistakenly referred to this character's brown eyes. Alert students caught
this and pointed it out, and the author just made a notation to change it.
If she had been a biblical inerrantist, she would probably have argued that
blue and brown were really the same or that in one place the eyes had only
an appearance of brown because of the reflection of light from a brown
background.
I have done some additional studies on the travels of the Israelites and
have noticed some more textual evidence that the biblical writer thought
that Moseroth and Mt. Hor were separate places. After reporting Aaron's
death on Mt. Hor in Numbers 33:38-39, the writer continued listing the
journeys of the Israelites:
Num. 33:41 They set out from Mount Hor and camped at Zalmonah.
42 They set out from Zalmonah and camped at Punon.
43 They set out from Punon and camped at Oboth.
44 They set out from Oboth and camped at Iye-abarim, in the territory of Moab.
I have found that the location of Zalmonah is known. It is situated about
70 miles northeast of Kadesh, which was where the Israelites camped before
they went to Mt. Hor. I have a computer atlas, which claims that Moseroth
was about 12 miles northeast of Kadesh, and Mt. Hor was about 10 or 12 miles
northwest of Moseroth. Zalmonah was about 65 miles east of Mt. Hor. Now, of
course, the location of Mt. Hor is probably just speculation on the part of
the compilers of this atlas, because all reference works I have ever seen
say that the locations of both Moseroth and Mt. Hor are not known. However,
the location of Zalmonah is known, and it is southeast of the Dead Sea and
northeast of Kadesh. Since the Israelites went from Kadesh to Mt. Hor, it
is reasonable to think that it would have been only about 12 miles from
Kadesh (as the atlas indicates), since the Israelites journeyed from Kadesh
to Mt. Hor ( Num. 33:37). A 70-mile leg, however, seems a bit far, but the
text does say that the Israelites left Mt. Hor and went to Zalmonah. Verse
42 says that they went from Zalmonah to Punon, and the location of Punon is
known to be modern Feinan, near the ruins of an ancient copper mine. Punon,
however, is just 12 miles southeast of Zalmonah. They then journeyed from
Punon to Obath, which was an oasis about 12 miles east of Punon.
What bothers me about the efforts made in my computer atlas to put Moseroth
and Mt Hor close together and just a few miles from Kadesh is the 70-mile
leg from Mt. Hor to Zalmonah (if the atlas is correct). I have found that
when the locations of these campsites are known, the traveling distance from
camp to camp turns out to be about 12 miles, which seems like a reasonable
day's journey for a horde of 3 million people, but this atlas makes an
effort to have the people leave Moseroth, travel to another camp, leave that
camp, travel to another camp, leave that camp, travel to another camp, leave
that camp, travel to another camp, leave that camp, travel to another camp.
leave that camp, travel to another camp, and wind up at Mt. Hor, which (so
the atlas claims) was only 12 miles or so from Moseroth. Then they leave
Mt. Hor and travel 70 miles before they make their next camp. I just don't
find this scenario believable.
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@midwest.net