yoel-
Dave, why do you want to force yourself to believe that it occurred? You
are an intelligent man!
Dave-
I have often used the example of,
>say, you asking me over for dinner. You could invite me over at 7:00 pm
>this evening. At that precise moment, I show up. The fact that I have
>appeared at 7:00pm IS the primary issue. As to HOW I got there, or how long
>it took me, these are only secondary issues. I view creatuion in the same
>manner - I believe there was a creator (primary) whose methods and time
>frames (secondary) are pretty well unknown to me. In this regard, the issue
>of evolution is only a secondary one - as a result, I neither think it
>supports or detracts from my belief system and faith - it very well could be
>the/a method of creation.
yoel-
Or maybe evolution happened without a creator.
Or maybe evolution happened with another creator than the one you presently
believe in.
Or maybe evolution happened with the creator you believe in but certain
things you believe about him are wrong.
Or maybe evolution didn't happen at all. Creation happened, but by a
different creator.
There are lots of possibilities- above are some of them which are believed
by different people I have met. The only reason you wish to leave an open
door in Genesis is so that you can hold on to your chosen book (which you
presently believ in) and still maintain your intellectual integrity.
But Dave, (and I am saying this in all sincerity) lots of light has been
shined on this list, light that exposed MANY, MANY errors in the Biblical
text. It isn't just Moseroth/Hor. Among others:
3 days and three nights
No virgin in Isaiah
No "he shall be called a Nazarene"
Talking donkeys
Sun stopping from revolving around the earth (should have been the other
way around, and even if it had been, it is obvious to me, a simpleton, that
this would have cause a multitude of geophysical problems because of the
stopping of the movement of the earth. Just slam the brakes on in your
car.)
How many donkeys did Jesus sit on
Many problems with Jewish festivals in the entrance of Jesus into Jerusalem
Eli, Lei/Eloi, Eloi (conflict and NOT a quote of Ps 22)
No pierced hands and feet in Psalm 22
Conflicting dates for Herod and census
Conflicting geneologies for Jesus through Joseph in Luke and Matthew (even
though his father supposedly HAD no geneology)
Antisemitic Jews
Pauls' conflicting conversion experiences
How many times did Peter's rooster crow?
When did Jesus curse the tree?
Why did Jesus curse the tree not in its season.
Jesus celebrated the passover meal AFTER passover.
Who was at the tomb?
Why is Jesus mentioned as beling at the tomb only in two gospels?
And the beat goes on and on and on
>Yoel
>But this is dishonest. This is using an analogy in one verse in the (sort
>of) literal sense, but it is only being applied to a time reference when
>the reference seems ridiculous or contradictory. Otherwise, "day" means
>"day".
>
>If I say "this day takes forever"- I do not literally mean that the day is
>lasting throughout eternity. In the same way, 2 Peter 3:8 is not setting
>the rules for proper calendars nor is it defining the meaning of the word
>"day".
>
>(DAVE 5/22) Yoel: Agreed.
>
>Yoel
> Actually, Peter seems to be answering to doubts as to the arrival of
>the Kingdom of God and the obvious fact that God is taking his sweet time.
>The following verse reads: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as
>some understand slowness." So, when Peter (or whoever) says "With the Lord,
>a day is like a thousand years." he is simply trying to convince the
>readers that the Lord takes his time.... He is NOT defining the meaning of
>the word "day" nor is he setting calendar functions.
>
>(DAVE 5/22) Yoel: Agreed - I believe this is his purpose here as well.
>Going back to the Genesis "day" then, can the same inference be applied?
>Could this "day" be longer than 24 hours? It depends on whose "perspective"
>the account is coming from - a God whose concept of "day" is (or could be) a
>very long time, or a human. Even for us, the idea of "day" can have several
>meanings - I could say "In my grandfather's day...." and mean much more than
>a 24-hour time period, and not even be time specific.
>
>
>Dave-
>>Creationists will state that the "day" is an actual day.
>
>yoel-
>Yom- day
>Yom kipur- day of atonement
>yom haemahot- mother's day
>yome shabbat- sabbath day
>yom yafe- beautiful day
>yom shishi- sixth day (friday)
>yom haatzmaut- independence day
>yom huledet- birthday
>yomayim- two days
>yom shilshom- the day before yesterday
>yom yom- everyday
>kol yom - every day
>yom tov- holiday
>hayom- today
>yom valailah- day and night
>dorit yom- Doris Day (just kidding)
>
>Dave-
>Evolutionists (who
>>either subscribe to or tolerate the Bible) will say that it means a very
>>long period of time - maybe a geological period. And there seems to be many
>>conclusions or thoughts in between these two extremes. And there are some
>>who believe it is symbolic literature and language - describing something
>>else beyond what we are considering.
>>
>>I don't know what I think on this - I haven't ruled evolution (of some form)
>>out of my belief system, yet I do believe there is a supreme being
>>responsible for our creation. It matters little in the long run which one
>>is right, but it is interesting.
>>
>>Can you, or Yoel or anyone else provide some information on the word "day"
>>used in Genesis and the real meaning of this word in the context of how it
>>is used here?
>yoel-
>Why would it mean anything else? There is no reason for "day" to mean
>anything besides "day", except a desire to prove something, and this
>allegorical "loophole" in Peter has been used in varying ways.
>
>Yom means "day". Just like "day" in English. "Jour" in French. "Dia" in
>Spanish... I believe the Arabic word is very similar (isn't it "yum"?), and
>I am pretty certain the the Aramaic word is the same. There is no secret
>regarding what it means.
>
>(DAVE 5/22) Yoel: So you are saying that the writer of Genesis meant to
>submit that the world was created in these 24 hour time periods? If so,
>what about the various meanings of "day" as I suggested above? Do these
>various meanings also apply to Hebrew?
yoel-
Dave! If I said I would arrive at your house in 1 day, and weeks later I
still have not shown up, you would not resort to believing my OBVIOUS
EXCUSE that 1 day COULD BE an "unspecified geological time". It is just
your desire to find an excuse to continue believing in this book.
I do not have my Hebrew Bible available (an may not have for some time),
but I am almost certain (from memory) that the text is:
vayihi erev* vahyhi boker yom ehad
and it was evening and it was morning day one
* there is more to this word that just "evening", since "erev" (root:
ayin-reysh-bet) is the same root for "west" (maarav). It originally meant
when the sun was going west in the sky. The word boker (root:
bet-quf-reysh), comes for the word "to be well visible and distinct" or "to
visit".
ALL of the words used above are normal words used for times of day.
The meaning is obvious. You will find no blurring of the facts according to
the language.
BTW, the text is also in agreement with the Jewish custom of beginning days
with sunset.