DAR
Apparently at times Tyre included different areas:
An excerpt from my Companion to the Bible under Phoenicia (p. 592)
"...there was a natural tendency for the various city-states to include
some of that hinterland in their territory. This was certainly true in the
case of Tyre, whose territory at times included parts of Galilee (1 Kings
9:11; see also Josephus, Ant. 5.1.63).
LIM
In terms of splendour, Tyre was the centre for cedar and dye trade.
Now, new Tyre is a small fishing village.
DAR
An inhabited fishing village. That is your problem. What Ezekiel said:
...thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; THOU SHALT BE
BUILT NO MORE: for I the LORD have spoken it,... I shall make thee
a desolate city, like the cities THAT ARE NOT INHABITED;... THAT
THOU BE NOT INHABITED; Ezek. 26: 14, 19, 20
He was wrong. Your bible prophecy fails.
LIM
The mainland Tyre is so desolated that nobody bother to photograph
a bear rock, save knowing its location.
DAR
I don't think the 23,000 or so people living there think it is desolated.
LIM
Big difference between rebuilt city and new fishing village.
DAR
Big difference between inhabited and not inhabited. Ezekiel did not
prophecy that it would become a fishing village some day, he
prophesied that it would not be inhabited. It is. The prophecy fails.
LIM
The prophesy in Eze. shows there is an intelligent superbeing telling the
future from the past.
DAR
Actually, all that is required is a very ordinary and flawed being since
the prophesy in Ezekiel failed on all counts. That is clearly the kind of
being that wrote this bible account. If the prophecy was that Tyre was
to be inhabited thousands of years into the future you would be
defending that. The difference would be that you would then have
evidence on your side. Tyre has been inhabited, almost continuously,
for thousands of years.
From my files, an encyclopedia quote, no citation:
Tyre
{tyr}
Tyre was a great trading port of ancient PHOENICIA, located on the
Mediterranean Sea about 40 km (25 mi) south of Sidon. The city gave
its name to the dye known as Tyrian purple. Today Tyre survives as the
small southern Lebanese town of Sur (1974 est. pop., 14,000).
LIM
You did not detect a change of location with your scholarship.
DAR
There is not a change of location. This is a lie I am getting tyred of
seeing posted. Let me set the record straight on this.
1) TYRE WAS FOUNDED UPON THE ISLAND.
From the same encyclopedia as above:
Tyre
{tyr}
Tyre was a great trading port of ancient PHOENICIA, located on the
Mediterranean Sea about 40 km (25 mi) south of Sidon. The city gave
its name to the dye known as Tyrian purple. Today Tyre survives as the
small southern Lebanese town of Sur (1974 est. pop., 14,000).
FOUNDED ON AN ISLAND, perhaps as a colony of Sidon, Tyre
possessed one of the best harbors on the coast. Until the 4th century
BC the city was almost impregnable against siege, but Alexander the
Great reduced Tyre in 332 BC by building a causeway that joined the
island to the mainland.
2) THAT VERY ISLAND, NOW A PENINSULA, IS INHABITED.
BIG TIME.
The Encyclopaedia Britannica says, among many other things, with
regard to Tyre:
"The silted up harbor on the south side of the peninsula had been
excavated by the Institut Francais d"Archeologie de Beyrouth, but
MOST OF THE REMAINS OF THE PHOENICIAN PERIOD STILL
LIE BENEATH THE PRESENT TOWN."
The World Book encyclopedia has, pg. 542:
"Alexander conquered the city in 332 B.C. and built a road from the
mainland to the Island, creating a peninsula FROM WHICH THE
PRESENT TOWN OF TYRE --also called Sur-- STANDS." [caps
mine]
LIM
You argue for things you did not and could not see. (Show me an
aerial photo of populated old Tyre perhaps with trading industry, if you
like.)
DAR
I have your address so I will send you a photocopy of a photograph
of an aerial photo of the very populated, inhabited Tyre. Or you could
just get a library card. Most encyclopedia's include a photograph
although usually not an aerial shot.
LIM
Humanists advocate lying and stealing.)
DAR
You are terribly mis-informed, or just downright dishonest. Four
statements of Affirmations of Humanism put out by the Council for
Democratic and Secular Humanism (CODESH, Inc.)
A Statement of Principles:
* We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and
with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
* We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
* We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity,
honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to
critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we
discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
* We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children.
We want to nourish reason and compassion.
Please retract your lie David Lim.
>TILL
>That Ezekiel was metaphorically describing Tyre as a ship is evident to
>anyone who wants to see the obvious meaning of the passage. The
metaphor is
>very appropriate for a city that occupied an entire island in the sea but
>hardly appropriate for mainland villages. The quotation of chapter 27
>continues.
LIM
There is no archaeological finding to prove an island city in that period.
There is no map dating back to Nebuchadnezzar showing 2 Tyre. You
just have a firm belief in your reasoning.
DAR
You are simply flat wrong David Lim. The island is the oldest part.
That exact same location is currently inhabited. Again:
The Encyclopedia Britannica says, among many other things, with
regard to Tyre:
"The silted up harbor on the south side of the peninsula had been
excavated by the Institut Francais d"Archeologie de Beyrouth, but
MOST OF THE REMAINS OF THE PHOENICIAN PERIOD STILL
LIE BENEATH THE PRESENT TOWN."
So this crap about the town never being found again and the town never
being rebuilt are a complete pack of lies as the REBUILT town of Tyre,
extant to this very day, lies on its former ruins and rubble as most
towns to this very day so remain.
Also, from an extensive book on Tyre which I obtained from the
University of Arkansas library, Wallace B. Fleming in his "The History
of Tyre" (1915), says:
"At the present time Tyre has a population of about six thousand five
hundred people, of whom approximately one half are Moslems; the rest
are Christians and Jews. It is the seat of a Kadi and a Greek Archbishop.
Strangers find lodgings at a Latin monastery. The Moslems have
primary and secondary schools for boys. The Franciscans and Sisters of
St. Joseph have convents and schools; the United and the Orthodox
Greeks also have schools. The British Syrian Mission has a boy's
school, a girl's school, a school for the blind and Sunday schools. The
Maronites, affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church, have an
archbishop, and the United Greek Church and the Orthodox Greek
Church each have a bishop here. THE TOWN OCCUPIES ABOUT
HALF THE FORMER ISLAND AND LAYS AROUND THE
HARBOR TO THE NORTH. The houses are small, the streets are
narrow, crooked and filthy. The area of the island is about 142 acres
ALMOST AS EXTENSIVE AS IN ANCIENT TIMES. THE
WESTERN AND SOUTHERN HALF OF THE ISLAND, except the
Moslem cemetery, IS GIVEN UP TO CULTIVATION AND
PASTURAGE. (--THE HISTORY of TYRE, Columbia University
Press: NY, 1915. pg. 129.)
The photo I have shows that it much more populated now. This is
understandable since the population has quadrupled since 1900. Ezekiel
would be just spinning in his grave.
LIM
Where is the cedar trade today? Where is the dye trade today? Where
is the infra-structure of Tyre city today?
DAR
Where is the prophecy saying: "Thy cedar and dye trade shall taper
off, Thy infra-structure shall diminish"? No, this is not was prophesied.
We are NOT dealing with a prophecy that predicted, "thou trade shall
taper off over the next few millennia and thy trade will subsist of small
boats 2500 YEARS HENCE." Then you would have a somewhat
accurate prophecy. Not an especially spectacular one but it would at
least give you SOMETHING to work with.
Here is what Ezekiel specifically predicted. Here is what you must,
but cannot, defend:
...thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; THOU SHALT BE BUILT
NO MORE: for I the LORD have spoken it,... I shall make thee a
desolate city, like the cities THAT ARE NOT INHABITED;... THAT
THOU BE NOT INHABITED; Ezek. 26: 14, 19, 20
THOU SHALT BE NO MORE THOUGH THOU BE SOUGHT FOR,
YET SHALT THOU NEVER BE FOUND AGAIN, saith the Lord God.
Ezek. 26: 21
The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a
terror, and NEVER SHALT BE ANY MORE. Ezek. 27:36
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee:
thou shalt be a terror, and NEVER SHALT THOU BE ANY MORE.
Ezek. 28:19
Thus, the bible predicted:
"thou shalt be built no more" Ezek. 26:14
But it was.
It says, "never be found again." (21)
It was. Wrong again.
It says THAT THOU BE NOT INHABITED
Yet it remains inhabited to this very day. What a wonderful
testament to FAILED Bible prophecy.
Here are the population figures:
1880 pop. 5000
1900 pop. 6000 (History of Tyre, Fleming)
1974 est. pop., 14,000
This has almost quadrupled since 1900. The 1982 pop. is given as
23,000. (The Encyclopedia Americana 1982 estimate population for
Tyre.)
LIM
Please show us aerial photos to reveal what is on the mainland Tyre and
what is on the island Tyre.
DAR
Gladly, I will send an aerial photo of the very inhabited oldest part of
Tyre, the Island, now a peninsula. This goes of anyone else as well. Just
give me a snail mail address. If you stick it up somewhere I suggest
putting the above Ezekiel verses below the picture. A celebration of a
very clear example of failed bible prophecy.
LIM
Can you locate mainland Tyre?
DAR
Absolutely. Pilots do it all the time. They have an airport there you
know.
I also called information. They told me that the number to call for
directory assistance for Tyre is: #011961. The specific city code for
Tyre is #7.
So, it seems Ezekiel meant Tyre "never shalt be anymore" in the
same way that Jesus meant "Behold, I come quickly." (Rev. 3:11), Har
har har, and we know how accurate that was. They both have failed of
course. Yes Tyre was destroyed (many times) and contrary to Ezekiel
assertions WAS REBUILT and existed for thousands of years after.
What David Lim needs to do is make the 23,000+ present day
Tyrians disappear... as in poof.
I submit that David Lim is no David Copperfield.
Now there is a prophecy you can put some money on!
cheers,
Darrel
-------------------------
"It does not pay a prophet to be too specific." --L. Sprague de Camp.