(DAVE 5/2) Farrell: Patient with me? It is I who must be patient as you
continue to redefine the meanings of words - "error" means wrong Farrell.
You have failed to show any error in these two accounts, yet now you decide
to angle off on the "unclear" theory - that is not error, Farrell, it just
means that something is unclear to you (a fact I have been aware of for some
time now). Please, I ask again, tell me which one of the two accounts is
wrong - that is all I ask - seems simple enough for someone who has already
stated that at least one is wrong - I'm just curious which one.
By the way, you're right, I don't understand where you get your "errancy"
doctrine - I always thought that errancy meant there was error. Seems I
was mistaken, since you can't seem to show any error in these two accounts
we are discussing. Or can you?
TILL
Ho, hum, more evasion from Dave. When two accounts of an event present
conflicting information, they cannot both be correct. Although it may not
be possible for anyone to prove which account is incorrect, to establish
error it is sufficient to show that one of them has to be wrong. I have
done that in postings that show that the breaking of their encampments seven
times from Moseroth to Mt. Hor by a horde of 3 million people would have
necessitated their traveling a distance of 63 miles even if they went no
farther than 9 miles each time (which would have been far enough only for
the people at the end of the column to leave the area occupied by the
previous encampment). To argue that this much distance could have been
traveled in the relatively confined space of the Sinai without having left a
"region" or "district" named Moseroth is such an unlikely claim that the
burden of proving certainly lies on the one who makes it.
At any rate, Dave, I am going to concede for the sake of argument that you
are absolutely right and that Mt. Hor was unquestionably located in a
geographical region named Moseroth. Now that you have that concession,
let's see you tackle the various other problems that I have identified in
the stories of the wilderness wanderings. Why don't you begin with the
discrepancy in Numbers 33:31 and Deuteronomy 10:6 and tell us which
encampment came first, Moseroth or Benejaakan, and then go from there to
explain the discrepancy in the time that Yahweh set apart the Levites to
bear the ark. Deuteronomy 10:8 says that it was done after Aaron died, but
the book of Numbers states that it was done 38 years earlier.
TILL
If I write a document in which I say that there are 5,760 feet in a mile, I
have not
contradicted anything else in the document (provided that I nowhere else
stated the number of feet in a mile or claimed a different number of feet in
a mile); nevertheless, I have made an erroneous statement. A failed
prophecy would be an error, but it would not be a contradiction. Surely,
you can see this.
(DAVE 5/2) Farrell: yes I do. We are not talking about any failed
prophecies though. If there are two statements such as the ones we are
discussing, then there would be a contradiction - at least one of them would
have to be wrong. Which of these statements, then, Farrell is "erroneous"?
TILL
Let me try to get through Dave's thick skull again. As I stated above, when
two statements in a document give conflicting information, one does not have
to establish which statement is correct and which one is erroneous in order
to establish the existence of error. It may well be that both statements
are erroneous, but it is sufficient to establish error only by showing that
both cannot be correct. Let's take the matter of when Yahweh set the
Levites apart to bear the ark. I'm very sure that both of the statements
are erroneous and that no such "setting apart" every occurred, since it
isn't very likely that a nonexistent deity could set apart a tribe of people
for a specific duty. However, I do not have to show which of the statements
is wrong and which is right in order to establish error. If the statements
are such that both cannot be right, then that is enough to establish error.
If Dave can't see that, why is he trying to debate anything?
TILL
Now in the matter under discussion, YOU are claiming that Moseroth and Mt.
Hor were the same places.
(DAVE 5/2) Farrell: NO I am not - please show me where I said this. I
have suggested it as a possiblity. I have made no assertion whatsoever - in
fact, as you no doubt know, I have said that we CANNOT know if these
staements are contradictory or not as we don't know where these places are.
YOU are making the assertion of error. The burden of proof is on YOU.
Don't ask me to defend something that isn't there in the first place.
TILL
Okay, if you are not arguing that Moseroth and Mt. Hor were the same places,
then you have lost the discussion of this point, because if they were not
the same place, then it couldn't possibly be true that Aaron died both at
Moseroth and Mt. Hor. Your task now is to show us how it could have been
possible for someone to die in two separate places. Burden of proof? Hmmm,
it seems to me you have taken a position that puts a whole lot of burden on you.
TILL
This is, of course, a claim for which you have absolutely no proof at all,
but you apparently belong to the any-explanation-will-do school of apologetics.
(DAVE 5/2) Farrell: Please show where I stated they were the same place.
If you cannot, please detract and apologize for this lie you have just
posted.
TILL
Okay, I apologize. I apologize for being so stupid that I would just
naturally assume that someone who would argue that there is no contradiction
in this matter would have to believe that Moseroth and Mt. Hor were the same
places. Now why don't you tell us just what the hell you do believe about
this? If Moseroth and Mt. Hor were not the same place, what possible
rationale do you have for claiming that the two accounts do NOT contain at
least one erroneous statement?
COURT
It seems, in your scampering to find some justification for your
assertion of error, that you will resort to any type of explanation instead
of admitting what we all know: we don't know where Moserath and Mount Hor
were, so we don't know if there is a contradiction. You're being most
dishonest here Farrell - it is most unbecoming.
TILL
We may not know where Moseroth (you still can't spell it, can you?) and Mt.
Hor were (if they ever even existed at all), but unless they were the same
place, the Bible contains an error. The ONLY recourse you have is to claim
that they were the same place. If not, why not?
TILL
So you seem to think that a how-it-could-have-been explanation resolves a
discrepancy whether there is any proof for the explanation or not. I have
given ample textual evidence from the Bible to show that it is extremely
unlikely that 3 million people, requiring at least five square miles--and
probably even more--of camping space, could have broken camp and traveled on
seven times and still have
been in the same geographical region in which Mt. Hor was a specific
location. You have not even tried to address that evidence.
(DAVE 5/2) Farrell: It is not evidence that is why - it is your "this is
what I think is most likely" type mentality. Sorry, but that means little
to me. I have honestly asked you for REAL evidence to support your
assertion that Moserath and Mount Hor were separate places.
TILL
Well, excuse me, but I thought that you just chastized me for accusing you
of thinking that they were the same place. So just what do you believe in
this matter? It's hard to discuss a subject like this with someone who keeps
going from one position to another. Now will you please tell us if your
defense of this discrepancy is that Moseroth (please notice the spelling)
and Mt. Hor were the same place? If that is not your defense, then please
explain to us how that Aaron could have died in two different places.
DAVE
You have avoided this request continually, and I am sure will continue to do
so.
Don't talk to me about how many Israelites it would take, to span the Sinai,
that is not evidnece, just biased conjecture on your part. Show me your
evidence or drop your claim of Biclical contradiction on the matter in
question.
TILL
If an archaeologist found a document that said in one place that the
Magombohite nation boarded a boat and crossed a sea and elsewhere the
document gave census numbers that indicated the population of the
Magombohite nation was at least 2.5 million, would you consider it "biased
conjecture" if the archaeologist concluded that some of the information in
the document had to be erroneous? Certainly not, because it would be
obvious even to you that this document couldn't possibly be historically
accurate, because there is nothing wrong with your ability to critically
evaluate written documents except those that are in the Bible. The same
principle applies to the absurdities that we have presented in analyzing the
wilderness stories to show that they were logistically impossible. Without
even addressing the points in these postings, you have dismissed them as
biased conjecture. If they are biased conjecture, what makes them biased
conjecture? Is everyone supposed to conclude that they are biased
conjectures just because Dave Court says so?
(DAVE 5/2) Snip - more dodging - my brother was right - you seem to use
more words when you have no point. Let's condense this matter and put it to
rest:
TILL
I will be very blunt with you, Dave. Your brother was a yellow-bellied
coward, who turned tail and ran when he saw that the evidence for biblical
inerrancy could not be refuted. However, I will say this much for him. He
was at least intelligent enough to run. His brother has no more sense than
to remain on the list and daily make a fool of himself.
COURT
You claim there is a contradiction, or error (s) between the two statements
concerning Aarons death in Numbers 33 and Deut 10. These two places state
that Aaron died in Moserath and Mount Hor. You state that this is a
contradiction.
Therefore, it follows that you know where Moserath and Mount Hor were and
that they are SEPARATE places. I have asked for your evidence to prove this.
TILL
Well, you demanded that I apologize to you for accusing you of saying that
Moseroth and Mt. Hor were the same place, but here you are again asking for
proof that they were SEPARATE places. So why wouldn't I conclude that you
are arguing that they were the same place? As for evidence that they were
separate places, see my postings about the size of the Sinai wilderness,
population estimates of the Hebrew horde, reasonable estimations of the size
of their encampments, and reasonable estimations of how far the front of a
column would have had to travel in order for the rear of the column to get
out of the area that was occupied by the previous encampment. Consider this
information in the light of my textual analysis of Numbers 33, which showed
that the writer gave clear indications when the Israelites camped in a
"region" rather than in a specific location. Then try to do something very
unusual for you: try to answer the arguments.
COURT
Now I am well aware that we don't know where they are, and have stated so -
TILL
And you should be well aware that I have shown how that we don't need to
know where they were located UNLESS they were the same place, and you demand
that I apologize when I accuse you of arguing that they WERE the same place.
Go figure.
COURT
you have dishonestly even tried to misrepresent me by saying I was providing
"explanations" as to where they were - I have not done this. I have said I
can't defend a contradiction where there isn't one (that we know of).
TILL
Unless you can show, contrary to the mountain of evidence that indicates
otherwise, that they were the same place, then there is definitely a
contradiction that you need to defend.
COURT
That is where we lie - you have gone off on a number of tangent matters to
try to deflect the issue from this one unsubstantiated assertion you have
made. It is rather sad to see how you wriggle. I'm not interested in your
theories Farrell, just your facts.
TILL
No, I haven't gone off on tangents. I have simply posted information to
show that IN ADDITION to the discrepancy in the two accounts of the place
where Aaron died, there are many other discrepancies and impossible
absurdies in these stories. And you have found yourself completely
hamstrung. What is really sad, Dave, is the "wriggling" that a biblical
inerrantist will resort to in order to keep from admitting the obvious. Oh,
well, at least you can write to your brother and tell him what a crushing
victory you have won.
COURT
Which account/s (above) is wrong, Farrell?
TILL
When two accounts contain conflicting information, they cannot BOTH be
correct. They may both be wrong, but they cannot both be correct. To
establish error, one does not have to show which account is wrong and which
is right. Error is established when it is shown that both accounts cannot
be correct. I have done that (to your complete dismay).
COURT
The burden is on you. Prove it or drop it.
TILL
I have fulfilled my burden by showing that both accounts cannot be true.
Now the burden is on you to show that my proof is fallacious.
COURT'S SIGNATURE QUOTATION:
"If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was clearly a miracle. Keeping
awake while he did it was, at any rate."
- Mark Twain on the Book of Mormon
TILL'S SIGNATURE QUOTATION:
"If Moses composed the Pentateuch, the act was clearly a miracle. Keeping
awake while he did it was, at any rate."
-Farrell Till on the Pentateuch
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@midwest.net