The Catholic Church Sure Has Come A Long Way!
Ian & Pam Dorion dorioni@ipa.net
Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:14:30 -0600 (00891368070, 199803311216.GAA19478@thunder.ipa.net)
> NANCY
> Ron, how do you know that Stalin's atheism is the reason he felt no
> constraints when it came to killing? This is just mere speculation on
your
> part and it is groundless. Surely you realize that the alleged moral
> constraints provided by your religion don't stop its adherents from
> committing all sorts of atrocities. Why do we have to keep reminding you
of
> the Crusades and the Inquisitions (Roman and Spanish), of the RCC's
> complicity in the wholesale slaughter and enslavement of indigenous
> Americans and Australians?
>
> KOLLER
> But Nancy, don't you see, because the Pope did not invoke these
atrocities
> in "ex cathedra", they don't count against the RCC *or* the Pope. ;-)
>
> Also, Ron has a long way to go in establishing causation here. First, Ron
> must provide evidence that Stalin was an Atheist. Second, Ron must show
> causation between that Atheism and Stalin's atrocities.
>
> I recently was involved in a discussion on the "Eye of the Beholder"
forum
> where I ran against this same argument with regard to Hitler. The person
was
> making the same charges against Hitler as Ron is against Stalin.
>
> So I'll tell Ron what I told this other person:
>
> ==========
> ...there is another logical fallacy that Dave is committing and it is
called
> "post hoc, ergo propeter hoc", literally meaning "After this, therefore
> because of this."
>
> Even if Dave could demonstrate that Hitler was an atheist, it doesn't
> necessarily follow that it was the basis for his crimes against humanity.
> Likewise, I cannot assert that Christianity was the basis for his crimes
> against humanity. Indeed, I never made any such connection. I rebutted
the
> claim that Hitler was an atheist.
> ==========
>
>
> RON
> OK, I realy don't think that just because someone is an atheist they
> will necessarily be more evil than other people or that Christians will
> necessarily be any better than others. This was said in an attempt to
> show those who make blanket assertions like that that they can be
> equally thrown back at them. That kind of thinking is a bit ridiculous.
> Talk about illogical! I do think many people use atheism as a crutch and
> that some use atheism as a means to escaping God's control, or in an
> attempt to silence their consciences. Sorry. I think agnosticism is a
> lot more logical. Someone who is a declared atheist is too sure of
> something he cannot have hoped to prove conclusively, which leads me to
> believe there is an element of wishful thinking involved. I think
> Catholics and other Christians are just as capable of evil as anyone
> else. They simply have to ignore their consciences a bit more. Whether
> Hitler was a Christian or Stalin was an atheist is irrelevent to whether
> there is or is not a God. There doesn't need to be or not be a God for
> people to dream up the most terrible sorts of evil in their own heads.
IAN
But Ron, if Christians and Atheists are both capable of committing the same
evil, what happens to Christian morality that Christians like to espouse?
Besides, Christians can always sin and then ask forgiveness either from
their priest at confession or in the privacy of their home if not Catholic.