[Seekers] Punishment
Ward Fenley kingdom@ksinc.net
Sun, 01 Mar 1998 23:41:43 -0600 (00888838903, 34FA4697.7E9BBFF8@ksinc.net)
Joseph Crea wrote:
>
> Hello, Ward, Linda et al!
>
> At 01:22 PM 3/1/98 -0600, Ward Fenley wrote:
> >Linda wrote:
> >>
> >> My Dear Friends,
> >>
> >> Why does it seem that in the "church world" everything must be
> >> "absolute"... black and white... right and wrong. We all know in the REAL
> >> world there is good and bad in everyone. There is some truth in many things
> >> and some falsehood in all things.
>
> WARD
> >Ok, without the Bible, prove to me that anyone's definition of "right"
> >and "wrong" is absolute.
> >
> >Linda, if I walk over and kill Chuck in cold blood, try to prove to me
> >without the Bible that it's wrong. You can't, cause without the Bible
> >you have no absolutes.
>
> Gee, Ward, from here it looks like you are saying that there are NO moral
> rules/commandments/guidelines/what-have-you in any other books ancient or
> modern. May I direct your attention to the Gathas and Zend Avesta of
> Zoroaster, the "gospel" of Mani, the Hindu Vedas and Vedanta, the Institutes
> of Manu, the Buddhist Tripitaka, the Confucian "Classics", the Japanese
> Nihongi, and more? Go take a look at what they have to say, and then come
> back and SUBSTANTIATE your apparent assertion that no moral absolutes exist
> outside the Bible.
>
Again, read my note to Farrel. You will find that I was addressing Linda
from her previously held perspective that the Bible is the word of God.
hope this helps.
Clay,
Ward
> WARD
> >Linda, for so long you have believed in preterism, but you cannot tell
> >me its the truth with your view. At least be consistent. Don't pull a
> >Davey and pick and choose what you believe is the word of God.
>
> >>LINDA
> >> Many would assert that the Bible is ABSOLUTE truth yet its very own pages
> >> nullify that assertion. They illustrate damnation and salvation but the
> >> stories portray the guilty as being delivered (David and Uriah) and the
> >> innocent and best... punished and persecuted (Christ).
>
> >WARD
> >Again, without the Bible, who are you to tell me its wrong to steal?
> >Because society says so?????? Absurd. Some societies teach it is very
> >proper to eat your babies. So then now it's a cultural ISSUE????? Right!
>
> CREA
> You say that "Some societies teach it is very proper to eat your
> babies"? I think you're showing an absolute disregard for the truth here
> and repeating unsubtantiated rumours and allegations. If you can provide
> reputable sources for this scurrilous assertion, I'll offer an apology and a
> retraction, but until then, you're just another two-bit gossip and liar in
> my book.
>
> However, on reflection, you just may be absolutely right [but I really
> doubt it]. There may well be some societies that teach it is right to eat
> your babies [again, I doubt it]. But my sources (which I'm sure are every
> bit as reliable as yours) identify those societies as being comprised of
> Christians, and that they indulge in this disgusting practice (and others
> equally repulsive) at their "love feasts" when they accept a new member to
> their nefarious ranks! This dirty little secret was divulged by the noted
> Roman rhetorician Marcus Cornelius Fronto (100-166 CE) [quoted by Minicus
> Felix in the __Octavius__, 9.5-6.; included in __The Ancient Christian
> Writers__, vol. 39, edited by G.W. Clarke, New York, 1974 and cited in R.
> Joseph Hoffman's __Celsus on the True Doctrine__] who reported:
>
> "A young baby is covered over with flour, the object being to deceive
> the unwary. It is then served before the person to be admitted to the
> rites. The recruit is urged to inflict blows onto it [which] appear to be
> harmless because of the covering of flour. Thus the baby is killed with
> wounds that remain unseen and concealed. It is the blood of this infant --
> I shudder to mention it -- it is this blood that they lick with thirsty
> lips; the limbs they distribute eagerly; this is the victim by which they
> seal the covenant."
>
> CREA
> You see, I can sling mud with the best of them, and better yet, I can
> document my aspersions and base canards. Your turn!
>
> >>LINDA
> >> But does God punish a person twice? Once in this world... and again in a
> >> burning hell forever? Where does the Bible teach this?
> >
> >WARD
> >That is why I utterly deny that Christ died for everyone. That is
> >injustice, for it would mean He was punished and yet unbelievers would
> >still be punished. Universal atonement is an abomination. Even the
> >self-proclaimed "Jews" on this list don't believe that OT sacrifices
> >were for the dog Gentiles. They were limited to the Old Covenant people
> >of God.
> >
> >Morality, Linda, Morality! I have not met a skeptic who can answer the
> >issue of determining ANY absolute morality. Why? figure it out, and when
> >you can come up with the answer, you let me know, and please don't give
> >the "God told me so through special revelation" argument. You know that
> >won't wash.
>
> CREA
> Then may I suggest that you trot down to your local library and see if
> you can locate a copy of Thomas Nagel's __The Last Word__ (Oxford
> University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-19-510834-5) in which he mounts a spirited
> defense of objectivism in relation to language, logic, science and ethics.
>
> With Mettaa,
>
> Joseph Crea
> <Joseph.Crea@worldnet.att.net>
>
--
Ward Fenley
Kingdom of Sovereign Grace
537 Crocker Road
Sacramento, CA 95864
Phone: 850-438-9053
Email: kingdom@ksinc.net
Web address: http://www.ksinc.net/~kingdom/
Psalms 145:11-13 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk
of thy power; {12} To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and
the glorious majesty of his kingdom. {13} Thy kingdom is an everlasting
kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.