Bell's Evasiveness on Morals
WBERNE@aol.com WBERNE@aol.com
Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:14:19 EDT (00907197259, 27f8152c.361274fb@aol.com)
At 12:30 PM 9/18/98 -0700, TIM TAYLOR wrote:
>
>Tim
>Bell has commented on "Atheist" morals today. He has yet to respond to
>a list of Yahweh's moral atrocities I
>posted to him last week. He continues to believe that an argument
>ignored is an argument not lost. He is wrong.
>
TILL
I'm waiting for Bell and the CCBE to tackle the problem of whether "all"
means all. They took the position that "all the Egyptians" in Exodus 7:24
would have necessarily included the magicians, so I have asked them to tell
us how that the plague of hail could have killed livestock in the field if
ALL the livestock of Egypt had already been killed by the plague of murrain.
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@midwest.net
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BERNE
The following is a copy of an email I sent to M. Bell. He has yet to respond.
I think that what is said is a may be a way of silencing inerrantists, however
from what I've seen in the debate between Bell and Till perhaps that is not
the case.
Farrell Till knows far more about the bible than I do, and M. Bell will not
accept what F. Till says (for that matter,. most Christians like M. Bell, will
not accept what F. Till says).
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Subj: Inerrancy and 'all'
Date: 98-09-24 14:13:03 EDT
From: WBERNE
To: mbkbell@aapi.co.uk
Berne,
I've been reading your posting to the errancy list, and you are claiming the
bible to be inerranent, and that 'all' means 'all'. That being the case,
perhaps you can respond to the following:
I have been reading the book of Revelation and have discovered something that
I haven’t heard about in reading Bible review. It appears that Jesus doesn’t
even save his saints.
According to the book of Revelation there will be the tribulation where many
people on earth are destroyed. Then Satan is cast to earth. The Beast comes
from the sea (Rev 13:1). “And I saw a beast coming out of the sea.” A
second beast makes everyone accept his mark or die (Rev 13:16). “He also
forced everyone small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a
mark on his right hand or on his forehead.” All those having the mark of the
Beast are damned to fire forever (Rev 14:11). “And the smoke of their torment
rises forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship
the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
Earth is damned with the wrath of God. The battle of Armageddon occurs (Rev
19:11). “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse,
whose rider is call Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.”
Rev 19:14 “The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses
and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.” Everyone on earth dies and is
eaten by the birds of the air (Rev 19:17). “And I saw an angel standing in the
sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, ‘Come gather
together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings,
generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all
people, free and slave, small and great.’” Satan is cast into the bottomless
pit for a thousand years (Rev 20:2). “He seized the dragon, that ancient
serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.”
Jesus resurrects the saints who died because they didn’t worship the beast
(Rev 20:4). “I saw the thrones on which were seated those who had been given
authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had
not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their
foreheads or hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand
years.” Jesus rules earth for a thousand years (Rev 20:6). “The second death
has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will
reign with him for a thousand years.” At this point the best I can see is
that the only people on earth are Jesus, his saints who came with him as his
army to fight in the battle of Armageddon , and the saints who where
resurrected who died because they wouldn’t worship the beast. Now according
to the gospels anyone who is resurrected will not marry or be given in
marriage so these people will not be having children (Mat 22:30). “At the
resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage, they will be
like the angels in heaven.”
When the thousand years are up Satan is released to deceive the earth (Rev
20:7), “When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his
prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth
- Gog and Magog - to gather them for battle.” which only has saints. Satan
will gather them like the sand on the seashore (Rev 20:8). “In number they
are like the sand on the seashore.” This army will march across the breath of
the earth and surround the camp of God’s people, the city he loves (Rev 20:9).
“They marched across the breath of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s
people, the city he loves.” The only city that God has claimed to love is
Jerusalem, so this city must be Jerusalem. Then fire comes down from heaven
and destroys Satan’s army. It appears to me that the only saints who are
saved are those living in the earthly city of Jerusalem, which must include
those saints who died during the great tribulation as they are told second
death has no power over them. Jerusalem isn’t that big, the rest of the
saints who where ruled by Jesus for a thousand years where given to Satan to
die fighting for him.
Then there is the final judgment, and all those not found in the lambs book of
life is cast into the lake of fire for second death (Rev 20:15). “If anyone’s
name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of
fire.” The city of gold (New Jerusalem) comes down from heaven (Rev 21:9).
“One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last
plagues came and said to me. ‘Come I will show you the bride, the wife of the
Lamb.’ And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and
showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.” God
lives on earth with those few saints who are saved.
Jesus says that anyone who keeps the words of this prophecy is blessed (Rev
22:7). “Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the
prophecy in this book.” I fail to see how being sent to death and hell
forever is a blessing.
John says that the prophecy can not be changed (Rev 22:18). “I warn everybody
who hears the words of the prophecy of this book; If anyone adds anything to
them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone
takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his
share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this
book.”
Also Jesus says he will not save everyone who calls him Lord (Mat 7:21-23).
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to
me on that day ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name
drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly,
‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”