1b CCBE Response (5)
Farrell Till jftill@midwest.net
Sat, 10 Oct 1998 16:57:01 -0700 (00908081821, 2.2.32.19981010235701.008a67ac@midwest.net)
>>> F.TILL
>>> I have shown three of the other places where "ken" was used in Exodus 7,
>>> so where was the fourth place?
> >
>>> I hope that Bell noticed that I said "Exodus 7" here.
>
>> TILL
>> That was in a verse where the KJV did not translate "ken" with the
>> English word "so."
>>
>> 11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the
>> magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner [KEN] with their
>> enchantments.
>> 12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents....
>>
>> So here is clear evidence that the writer of this text was using the Hebrew
>> word "ken" in the sense of "so" or "in duplication of." Aaron threw his rod
>> down, and it became a serpent. The magicians did SO or IN LIKE MANNER,
>> threw their rods down, and they became serpents. What Aaron did the
>> magicians did.
>>
>> Here is the textual evidence that the CCBE requested, but if this isn't
>> sufficient, I can walk them through various translations to show that in
>> the opinion of the translators "ken" meant to do the same. To show that
>> this is so, let's juxtapose Exodus 7:11 (changing the rods to serpents) with
>> Exodus 7:22 (changing the water into blood) as the two verses are rendered in
>> the version of the Jewish Publication Society:
>>
>> 7:11, And the Egyptian magicians, in turn, DID THE SAME with their spells.
>>
>> 7:22, But when the Egyptian magicians DID THE SAME with their spells....
>>
>CCBE
>We ask you to note that in your last reference although it could be argued
> that 'every man' exactly duplicated the feat of Aaron, the collective result
>exceeded that of the initial feat which involved one rod and one serpent,
>in contrast to the rods/serpents the magicians worked with. This of course
>necessitated a further demonstration of the superiority of Moses/Aaron's
>God. We also point out that as with the other quotes you provided there is
>absolutely nothing in the passage restricting the magicians from
>duplicating, indeed exceeding, the initial feat.
> >
> TILL
> Well, certainly, the magicians' duplication of Aaron's feat "necessitated a
> further demonstration of the superiority of Moses/Aaron's God," because
> that was the whole point of the way the writer was trying to plot his
story. As
> I have previously explained, he was obviously attempting to convey the
> superiority of Yahweh's power. Hence, when the magicians of Egypt did "in
> like manner" [ken] and changed their rods into serpents, Aaron had to engage
> in a bit of one-upmanship and have his serpent swallow the magicians'
> serpents. None of this, however, disputes the fact that "ken" meant to do
> the same, and that was the obvious intention of the writer when he said
> that he magicians did "in like manner with their enchantments" and even
went > on to specifically state that this was his intended meaning: "For
they [the
> magicians] cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents." So
> please tell us why the writers' claim that the magicians did "in like manner
> with their enchantments" does not mean exact duplication in this incident,
> and then tell us why if it meant exact duplication here, it did not mean
> exact duplication in 7:24.
>
TILL
At this point in his reply, Bell made the following comment.
>CCBE
>We have no argument that each individual magician exactly duplicated the feat
>of Aaron. We pointed out that if one derives from the whole text that the
>magicians were acting as a corporate group that the result here exceeded that
>of Aaron. We won't push this as it is not definite and our argument is strong
>enough without quibbling over such details.
TILL
If you aren't going to push it, then why are you having such a fit because
you think that I haven't responded to your rebuttal points in this
particular posting? To head off any claim that I have not responded to this
quibble, I will cut and paste my prior response to it.
*********************
>
>TILL
>So just what did I evade here? I did an analysis of 7:11 to show that
"ken" meant duplication, and all you did was quibble that the magicians
actually exceeded or went beyond what Aaron did, a point that would prove
nothing except that "ken" meant at least to duplicate and possibly even to
exceed. It would certainly not prove that "ken" meant to do less than. If
not, why not?
>
>Then in reply to your quibble, I posted the 16-line paragraph above, which
addressed the dubious point you had tried to make. Please notice that I even
pointed out (at the end) that 7:11 emphasized that "every man [magician"
cast down his rod, so actually the text was stating that EACH man duplicated
Aaron's feat. So where did the evasion occur?
>
So just where did the evasion occur? I will again point out that this
section of a posting that Bell claims I have not replied to is very short,
so he should have no problem directing us to points that he thinks I have
evaded in this part of the posting. We will wait to see him do that.
CCBE
> As we have stated before the reason
>why your argument is fallacious, including this one is that there is no textual
>restriction on Moses and Aaron carrying out the act whereas in 7:22 (which we
>assume you meant) there is a textual restriction on the magicians. Same
>fallacy, same result, your argument is fallacious and textually without
>warrant.
TILL
Your "textual-restriction" argument has been replied to over and over. Out
of consideration of the other members of this list, I won't cut and past my
reply again, but if you still deny that I have responded to it, I will
gladly send you a dozen copies of it.
At this point, I will just add what I noted before: words mean what they
mean, so if the word "ken" carried the sense of "the same," then it there is
"textual warrant" for concluding that the writer of Exodus meant to convey
that the magicians did the same as Aaron and Moses. Furthermore, if the
word "ken" meant "the same," then it would have been an intentional error
for the Exodus writer to use it in saying that the magicians of Egypt did
"the same" [ken] after that Aaron and Moses had changed all the water of
Egypt into blood, if he had in fact realized that they couldn't have done
the same because of what you call "limitations." If not, why not? Why
don't you take your turn at bat and try to respond to this argument? Could
we see a reply from you that doesn't assume that there had to be a way for
the Egyptian magicians to do the same, because the Bible says that they did
the same?
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@midwest.net