Alward's Confused

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 Hello again, Joe!
 
 At 06:17 PM 10/21/98 EDT, JAlw@aol.com wrote:
 >Joe Alward:
 >
 > On a related matter, let me ask about the use of the words "did so".  I
could
 >be completely wrong about this, but it seems that Farrell was making the
point
 >that the magicians "did so" with their enchantments meant that they did
 >everything Moses had done with his rod waving and water conversion.  Now, it
 >seems that "did so" in the lice story only meant that the magicians had
waved
 >their rods in an attempt to match Aaron's magic.  Since they failed, doesn't
 > that mean that "did so" in the lice plague story only meant "waved their
rods
 > like Aaron did"?  If so, then how can we be sure that "did so" in the blood
 > plague story meant "did everything that Moses did"?  We're not told the
 >result
 > of the magicians' rod waving, so aren't we left somewhat in the dark?  Or
is
 > my confusion purely the result of consulting a flawed Strongs translation?
 >=================
 >Farrell Till: 
 >
 > <Alward snips important comments he'll think about later>
 >
 > I have checked different translations of verse 18 and found entirely
 > different renderings from the KJV's "did so with their enchantments."
 > 
 ><snip five translations which show that the magicians "tried to bring forth
 >lice">
 > 
 > Other versions also render the verse to mean that the magicians tried but
 > failed, so surely there is a textual reason for this translation.  An
 > identical expression in two verses of an English translation doesn't
 > necessarily mean that the expressions were identical in the original, and
 > that appears to be the case here.
 >==================
 >Joe Alward:
 >
 >My lack of understanding of the origins of the various translations cause me
 >to be suspicious, I guess.  It is hard for me to accept (blame it on
naivete,
 >I suppose) that the exact same expression in English in the blood and lice
 >stories, "and the magicians did so with their enchantments", did not have
 >exactly the same Hebrew to back it up, especially given that the verses are
so
 >close together in Exodus.
 >
 >Believing as I do that, say, that the NIV is a politically correct KJV whose
 >translators arbitrarily removed some embarrassing errors, I have to wonder
 >whether the translators of the versions Farrell cites were just being
 >expedient.  Did the translators recognize the questions that would be raised
 >by readers who would wonder whether the magicians succeeded with the blood
 >plague, and therefore they arbitrarily decided to remove the ambiguity by
 >restructuring the words in the lice story?
 >
 >In summary, let me just ask this:  Is is generally accepted that the correct
 >translation of the lice story is "tried to do so with their enchantments",
and
 >not "did so"?
 
 
 CREA
     I'm afraid so.  Here's a transliteration of the Hebrew for Exodus 8:14
 (in the Masoretic text -- that would be Exodus 8:18 in the various English
 translations) without the vowel pointings which were a later addition, along
 with a rough but literal interlinear rendition:
 
 
   [8:14]  WAW-YOD-AYIN-SHIN-ZAYIN   KOPH-NUN   HEH-CHETH-RESH-SAMEKH-MIM-YOD-
MIM
                 BUT-DID             THE-SAME          THE-MAGICIANS
 
 
   [8:14]  BETH-LAMED-SAMEKH-YOD-HEH-MIM   LAMED-HEH-WAW-TSADE-YOD-ALEPH
                WITH-THEIR-SECRET-ARTS              TO-BRING-FORTH
 
 
   [8:14]  ALEPH-TAU      HEH-KOPH-NUN-YOD-MIM
           D.O. marker       THE-GNATS/LICE
 
 
   [8:14]  WAW-LAMED-ALEPH      YOD-KOPH-LAMED-ZAYIN
               BUT-NOT        [THEY] WERE-ABLE/HAD-POWER
 
 
   [8:14]  WAW-TAU-HEH-YOD   HEH-KOPH-NUN-YOD-MIM   BETH-ALEPH-DALETH-MIM
            AND-THERE-WERE      THE-GNATS/LICE             ON-MAN
 
 
   [8:14]  WAW-BETH-BETH-HEH-MIM-HEH
                 AND-ON-BEASTS
 
 
 
 CREA
      Hope that this helps.
=============
Joe Alward:

That's extremely interesting.  Thanks very much.  Does it help?  Yes, it
absolutely does.  It helps make me even more suspicious.   
 

"But-did the same the magicians with-their-secret-arts to bring forth the-
gnats-lice
but-not [they] were-able/had power and-there-were the-gnats/lice on-man and-
on-beasts"

This is similar to the the KJV translation.  Your Masoretic translation does
not show the magicians TRIED to bring forth the lice, although it's perfectly
clear that they failed to do so.  I'm looking for the key word "tried" in the
first half of the verse that Farrell found in the several other translations.
Why is it not in the Masoretic?

Thus, it seems I'm back to where I started, wondering whether we have good
reason to believe that the "did so" in the blood plague story meant "did
everything Moses did, including converting all the water to blood".  On the
one hand, Farrel shows several translations which show the word "tried", while
you show that the Masoretic does NOT have this crucial word.

To summarize, unless we have a definitive translation which shows that "did
so" always meant "did everything that Moses did", instead of sometimes just
meaning "waved his rod the way Moses did", then I remain unconvinced (but
still sure that you'll show that I've overlooked something) that the blood-
plague story is unequivocal.

Can you help further?
 

 
 

 
 

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