Proof of Bible Prophecy
Farrell Till errancy@infidels.org
Mon, 31 May 1999 00:07:36 -0700 (00928152456, 2.2.32.19990531070736.008d890c@midwest.net)
THOMASON
>In the document that I just read, Mr. Till argues that Jeremiah was
>altered after the events occured to make it appear as if the prophecy
>was correctly fulfilled.
>
TILL
Thomason must be referring to my debate with Dr. James D. Price on the issue
of Jeremiah's 70-year prophecy. If so, I would suggest that he go back and
read my rebuttals again. I stated only that Price could not prove that
Jeremiah made his prediction before the fact. I supported my point by
showing that (1) the earliest record of the prophecy is in the Septuagint
translation, which dates from the 3rd century B. C., and (2) critical
analysis of the text of Jeremiah has shown that this book in its present
form is not the work of a single writer but of several who contributed to it
over a period of many years. My counterargument to Price's claim was that
unless he can prove unequivocally that Jeremiah made the prophecy before the
fact, he cannot established that a genuine prophecy was fulfilled in this
case. So the matter wasn't really that I claimed that the text of Jeremiah
was altered after the fact but that Price couldn't really prove that the
prophecy was made BEFORE the fact. Since he was the asserter in the matter,
he had the burden of proving that the prophecy was genuine, but those who
followed the debate in *The Skeptical Review* know that he was never able to
do this.
THOMASON
> Well, consider this example in which there is no possibility of tampering
>after or even close to the actual event.
TILL
We will see that even though the particular "prophecy" that Thomason is
alleging could not have been written after the fact, he has a slew of
other problems to resolve before he can claim prophecy fulfillment in this
matter. The major problem for him is the one that proved to be the undoing
of RNM's claim on alt.bible.errancy that a prophecy in Daniel 9:25 was
fulfilled in the birth and death of Jesus of Nazareth. I pointed out to RNM
that before he can claim that statement X was a prophecy that was fulfilled
in event Y, he must first prove that statement X meant exactly what he was
claiming it meant. In other words, the one who is claiming that prophecy
fulfillment has occurred must prove that the alleged prophecy statement
meant what the proponent of prophecy fulfillment claims that it meant. In
the case of RNM's fulfillment claim, he asserted that Daniel 9:25 (which
referred only to a "word" that would go forth saying that Jerusalem would be
rebuilt) meant that a royal decree would be issued COMMANDING that Jerusalem
be rebuilt and that a decree by king Artaxerxes issued in 557 B. C. was the
"commandment" that Daniel was referring to, but RNM was never able to
establish that "Daniel" intended for the Hebrew word "dabar" (which meant
simply
"word") to denote a "decree" or "commandment." Thus, RNM was never able to
establish the initial step involved in proving prophecy fulfillment, which
is that the prophetic statement meant what the proponent of fulfillment is
claiming that it meant.
We will see that this is a serious problem for Thomason in the prophecy
fulfillment claim that he has presented to us.
THOMASON
>In Lev. 26:18 it is written that whenever God's people disobey Him, He
>will allow calamity to come their way. If after a period of warning they
>do not repent, He will punish them seven times over.
>
TILL
Thomason has a serious comprehension problem. The verse he cited in
Leviticus is in a context in which Yahweh was warning the Israelites of the
plagues and other adversities that he would bring upon them if they did not
keep his commandments after they had entered into the so-called promised
land. According to traditional theory of biblical authorship, the book of
Leviticus was written by Moses before the Israelites entered Canaan, and so
Leviticus 26, as well as Deuteronomy 28-30, contained warnings of what would
happen to the people if they did not obey Yahweh's commandments after they
had occupied the land. The first verse of Leviticus is quite clear in
saying this.
>Leviticus 26:1 "'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone
for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in YOUR LAND to bow down
before it. I am Yahweh your God.
>
As the chapter continues, it soon becomes clear that "Moses" was promising
the people that blessings would result from their obedience to Yahweh but
warning them that severe consequences would result from their disobedience.
>13 I am Yahweh your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be
their slaves no more; I have broken the bars of your yoke and made you walk
erect.
>14 But if you will not obey me, and do not observe all these commandments,
>15 if you spurn my statutes, and abhor my ordinances, so that you will not
observe all my commandments, and you break my covenant,
>16 I in turn will do this to you: I will bring terror on you; consumption
and fever that waste the eyes and cause life to pine away. You shall sow
your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
>17 I will set my face against you, and you shall be struck down by your
enemies; your foes shall rule over you, and you shall flee though no one
pursues you.
>18 And if in spite of this you will not obey me, I will continue to punish
you sevenfold for your sins.
>19 I will break your proud glory, and I will make your sky like iron and
your earth like copper.
>20 Your strength shall be spent to no purpose: your land shall not yield
its produce, and the trees of the land shall not yield their fruit.
>21 If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to
plague you sevenfold for your sins.
>22 I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall bereave you
of your children and destroy your livestock; they shall make you few in
number, and your roads shall be deserted.
>23 If in spite of these punishments you have not turned back to me, but
continue hostile to me,
>24 then I too will continue hostile to you: I myself will strike you
sevenfold for your sins.
>25 I will bring the sword against you, executing vengeance for the
covenant; and if you withdraw within your cities, I will send pestilence
among you, and you shall be delivered into enemy hands.
>
In typical Yahwistic fashion, this text was warning of plagues, famine,
death and such like as punishment for disobedience after the people had
entered the land, but it was the harshness of their tribulations and
punishments that would be multiplied sevenfold and NOT the duration of their
punishment that would be multiplied sevenfold. Hence, Thomason has taken a
text that concerned harshness and severity of punishment and tried to apply
it to the DURATION of punishment. There is nothing in this text or the one
in Deuteronomy that even hints that this was the intended meaning. Hence,
Thomason has already encountered the obstacle that I discussed above. It is
incumbent on him as the asserter to prove that the text in Leviticus 26
meant that the (1) DURATION of punishment rather than the severity of
punishment was what Yahweh warned that he would increase sevenfold, and that
(2) this sevenfold principle was one that Yahweh would apply to ALL cases of
sin and disobedience.
THOMASON
>"If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your
>sins seven times over."
TILL
My comments above explain the misapplication that Thomason is making of this
statement. If "Moses" had meant what Thomason had claimed, he surely would
have said, "If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you
for your sins seven times LONGER." That would have made it clear that
duration and not severity was what was meant, but as it is, "seven times
over" is obviously an expression intended to convey that the severity or
harshness of the punishment would be multiplied seven times. Furthermore,
Thomason must show that this statement was a universal principle that Yahweh
intended to apply to ALL cases of sin and disobedience.
THOMASON
>In Ezekial chapter 4, God told Ezekial to lie down on his side for 430
>days to signify the 430 years that Israel would spend in exile.
>
>"3 Then take an iron pan, place it as an iron wall between you and the
>city and turn your face toward it. It will be under siege, and you shall
>besiege it. This will be a sign to the house of Israel. 4 Then lie on
>your left side and put the sin of the house upon yourself. You are to
>bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. 5 I have
>assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for
>390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel. 6 After you have
>finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear
>the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for
>each year."
>
TILL
Thomason has failed to notice that this passage, whose vagueness is typical
of prophetic writings, clearly distinguishes between the "house of Israel"
and the "house of Judah." Ezekiel was to lie on his left side for 390 days
to "bear the sin of the house of Israel" and then lie on his right side for
40 days to "bear the sin of the house of Judah." The Hebrew people had been
unified into one kingdom during the reigns of David and Solomon, but upon
Solomon's death, the kingdom split into the northern part, which was
thereafter known as Israel, and the southern part, which was thereafter
known as Judah. Jeroboam was the first king of the northern kingdom, and
Rehoboam was the first king of the southern kingdom. (See 1 Kings 11 & 12
for specific details of the split.) In 722/721 B. C., the northern kingdom
fell to the Assyrians during the reign of Shalmaneser, and the population
was deported to Mesopotamia and Media. The southern kingdom lasted until
597 B. C. when Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar, and much of its population
was deported to Babylon. The deportees of the northern kingdom became known
as the "ten lost tribes of Israel," because they were apparently assimilated
into the population of the countries they were taken to, but in 539 B. C.,
king Cyrus of Persia, after his conquest of Babylon, issued a proclamation
that allowed the captives in Babylon, who would have been from the "house of
Judah" to return to their homeland (2 Chron. 36:22-23; Ezra 1:1-3). Thus,
the tribe of Judah did not become "lost" as did the northern tribes.
>From the time of the deportation of the northern population (the "house of
Israel"), Hebrew prophets, ethnocentrically convinced that the Jews were
Yahweh's chosen people, began to prophesy that they would one day be
gathered back to their homeland (Isaiah 10:20-23), and after the southern
population (the "house of Judah") was taken to Babylon, prophets began to
make the same prediction about their return to Judah. Hence, we will see
that Thomason erred in adding the 390 days and the 40 days, because the
intention of the passage was obviously to convey a prediction that the
punishment of the house of Israel (northern deportees) would last for 390
days (years) and the punishment of the house of Judah (southern deportees)
would last for 40 days (years). Rather than adding the two together to get
a sum of years that Thomason can conveniently fit into a preconceived notion
that the establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 fulfilled a prophecy,
he must instead take the 390 days (years) and, calculating from 721 B. C.,
the year the "house of Israel" was deported, show that Ezekiel's
"prophecy" about the northern kingdom was fulfilled. Then he must take the
40 days (years), and calculating from 587 B. C., the year of the Babylonian
exile, show that this part of the prophecy was fulfilled for the house
of Judah. I will be eager to see him do this.
THOMASON
>Jeremiah predicted that the first seventy years of this punishment would
>be exile in Babylon. This was Israel's warning period.
>
TILL
Well, at least Jeremiah prophesied that the Judeans would be in captivity
for 70 years, but whether this is to be interpreted as the first seventy
years of "this punishment" is another matter entirely. As I just showed
above, the 390 days (years) didn't refer to the punishment of the house of
Judah but to the punishment of the "house of Israel," the northern kingdom.
Furthermore, we also noted above that Ezekiel, a prophet living in Babylon
during the exile (1:1-3), prophesied that the "house of Judah" would be
punished for only 40 years. Hence, Thomason will have to show us that
Ezekiel made this prophesy 30 years into the Babylonian exile or else
explain to us why two prophets inspired of God disagreed on how long the
punishment would last. Since Ezekiel dated his book in the "fifth year of
Jehoiachin's captivity" (1:2), which would have been in 592 B. C., Thomason
will have to show us evidence that Ezekiel did not write the "prophecy" in
chapter four until 557 B. C. or else there will be a serious discrepancy in
the lengths of the punishment for the "house of Judah" that Ezekiel and
Jeremiah predicted. Even if Thomason could prove that 557 B. C. was when
Ezekiel wrote the "prophecy" in chapter four, his problems wouldn't be over,
because
Jeremiah's prediction was that the "punishment" (captivity) would last for
70 years, which would mean the captivity would have had to last to 527 B. C.
in order to get in the full 70 years that Jeremiah predicted. Records from
Persia and Babylon, however, clearly date Cyrus's proclamation granting the
Judeans their freedom in the year 539/538 B. C.. the first year of Cyrus's
reign. That was about a dozen years short of the 70-year mark that Jeremiah
predicted.
Ah, the task of the prophecy-fulfillment apologist can indeed get
complicated! I'll have more to say about the failure of Jeremiah's time
frame as I continue my response.
THOMASON
>"11 This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these
>nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years."
>
>In 536 B.C., seventy years after they had been taken into exile, Cyrus
>the Great allowed them to return to Jerusalem.
TILL
Actually, Cyrus issued his proclamation the first year of his reign.
>2 Chronicles 36:22 In the FIRST year of King Cyrus of Persia, in
fulfillment of the word of Yahweh spoken by Jeremiah, Yahweh stirred up the
spirit of King Cyrus of Persia so that he sent a herald throughout all his
kingdom and also declared in a written edict:
>23 "Thus says King Cyrus of Persia: Yahweh, the God of heaven, has given
me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house
at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever is among you of all his people, may
Yahweh his God be with him! Let him go up."
>
>Ezra 1:1 In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia, in order that the word
of Yahweh by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Yahweh stirred up
the spirit of King Cyrus of Persia so that he sent a herald throughout all
his kingdom, and also in a written edict declared:
>2 "Thus says King Cyrus of Persia: Yahweh, the God of heaven, has given me
all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at
Jerusalem in Judah.
>3 Any of those among you who are of his people--may their God be with
them!--are now permitted to go up to Jerusalem in Judah, and rebuild the
house of Yahweh, the God of Israel--he is the God who is in Jerusalem;
>4 and let all survivors, in whatever place they reside, be assisted by the
people of their place with silver and gold, with goods and with animals,
besides freewill offerings for the house of God in Jerusalem."
>
Babylonian and Persian records clearly show that Babylon fell to Cyrus on
October 12 in 539 B. C., so if this decree was issued in the first year of
his reign, that would have been in 538 B. C. at the latest. Hence,
Thomason's chronology is off two years on this one point alone. For someone
wanting to arrive at the year A. D. 1948 in order to show remarkably precise
fulfillment of Ezekiel's "prophecy," this could throw his calculations into
complete turmoil. At any rate, it is clear that the Judeans were not in
captivity for the full 70 years, and this fact, as I will later show, plays
havoc with Thomason's numerological calculations.
At this point, Thomason began his numerological calculations, which I will
respond to in a separate posting.
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@midwest.net