Does God Kill Babies (QUESTIONS) (2)
errancy@infidels.org errancy@infidels.org
Mon, 31 May 1999 20:34:37 EDT (00928215277, fb6d1242.2484849d@aol.com)
In a message dated 5/25/99 11:08:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Joseph.Crea@worldnet.att.net writes:
>
> At 06:29 AM 5/25/99 EDT, Randy Bronson wrote:
>
> --massive snip--
>
> > RANDY
> >
> > That would not be the only possible rationale. In the above examples
the
>
> >first three individuals take actions that destroy lives they did not
create.
>
> >This does not apply to the fourth example. Here is a set of parallel
> >examples:
> >
> > 1. It is objectively immoral for Bill Clinton to lie.
> >
> > 2. It is objectively immoral for God to lie.
> >
> > God is not an exception to everything, but He is an exception to those
> >examples which have been discussed in this thread so far.
>
>
> CREA
> Ok, if it is (as you seem to be asserting) immoral to for any
> person/entity to lie, then there is an excellent prima facie case that
> God/YHWH is immoral. Nearly all of the sceptics on the list are familiar
> with the following, but I am continually surprized at the Christians who
> come on this list ignorant of the same passages. First, God is presented
as
> LYING (by proxy) to King Ahab at Second Chronicles 18:18-22 (with a
parallel
> passage at 1 Kings 22:19-23):
>
>
> [2Chron. 18:18, TEV] "Micaiah went on: 'Now listen to what the LORD
> says! I saw the LORD sitting on his throne in
> heaven, with all his angels standing beside him.
>
> [2Chron. 18:19, TEV] "'The LORD asked: "Who will deceive Ahab so that
> he will go and get killed at Ramoth?" Some of
> the angels said one thing, and others said
> something
> else,
>
> [2Chron. 18:20, TEV] "'until a spirit stepped forward, approached the
> LORD and said: "I will deceive him." "How?" the
> LORD asked.
>
> [2Chron. 18:21, TEV] "'The spirit replied: "I will go and make all of
> Ahab's prophets tell lies." The LORD said: "Go
> and deceive him. You will succeed."'
>
> [2Chron. 18:22, TEV] "And Micaiah concluded: 'This is what has
happened.
> The LORD has made these prophets of yours lie to
> you. But he himself has decreed that you will
> meet with disaster!'"
>
>
> CREA
> Now, please don't tell us that since God didn't DIRECTLY utter or
> otherwise communicate those falsehoods he is not culpable -- after all,
> neither did David personally kill Uriah (so he could marry Bathsheba), but
> it was at his orders and with his knowledge & connivance, and God held him
> morally accountable for for the murder just as if he had done the deed in
> person. Or are you going to tell us yet again that things are different
> when God does them?
RANDY
Well some things are, but I've stated that lying is not one of those
things.
Let me start by saying that I think this passage is a good prima facie case
to support your contention. I will of course argue that it is not seen to be
so
once it's placed in a theological context.
The argument (from my Calvinist perspective) would go like this. The
Westminister Confession states that "God ordains whatsoever comes to
pass" and that God is "not thereby the author of sin."
Lying is the premeditated making of a knowingly false statement. I think
we
agree that God Himself made no false statements in the example you've quoted.
Based on the wording of the text it appears the spirit who volunteered for
duty
made no statements either. I interpret the phrase "will be a lying spirit in
their
mouths" to mean that this spirit was a deluding influence acting directly on
the
wills of the false prophets.
These prophets are shown to be false by the fact that Jehoshaphat relied on
them
for flattering utterances. For God to act directly on their wills and cause
them to
believe a specific false idea would have been no great feat.
God's lack of culpability here stems from the fact that he made no false
statements
and asked no one to make any false statements. Neither did the spirit who
volunteered
for duty make any false statements or ask anyone to make any false
statements. It is
in this sense that this situation is not a parallel to David and the murder
of Uriah. David
did ask someone to commit murder.
For the sake of clarity let me say that this was not a case of God forcing
people who
wanted to tell the truth to lie. It was a case of God causing a group who
wished to lie to
believe a specific lie that served His purposes.
I'm sure you'll have objections to this perspective (although I'm hopefully
not the
first Calvinist to post on this list) so I'll wait for your specific
objections before
commenting in anymore detail.
>
> And how about breaking promises/covenants/oaths/vows? The Bible reports
> that God/YHWH wasn't above breaking them (even of the
> "perpetual"/"everlasting" variety) which he got sufficiently pissed (see 1
> Samuel 2:30-36). Does this count as an immoral act when God breaks his
> word, or is this another case of YHWH telling the Israelites "Do as I say,
> not as I do"?
RANDY
Let's wait until we're through discussing this first passage before we
branch out.
Randy Bronson
>
>
> With Mettaa,
>
> Joseph Crea
> <Joseph.Crea@worldnet.att.net>
>