A Question for Bronson
errancy@infidels.org errancy@infidels.org
Thu, 3 Jun 1999 20:52:29 EDT (00928475549, fceb1e4e.24887d4d@aol.com)
In a message dated 6/1/99 1:42:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jftill@midwest.net writes:
> At 08:34 PM 5/31/99 EDT, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 5/30/99 1:24:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >jftill@midwest.net writes:
> >
> >>
> >> At 12:44 AM 5/29/99 EDT, you wrote:
> >> >In a message dated 5/26/99 1:48:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >> >jftill@midwest.net writes:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> TILL
> >> >> Inscriptions at the entrance of an Assyria temple at Nimrud dates
> from
> >> the
> >> >> 8th century B. C. One of the inscriptions purporting to be by King
> >> >> Assur-Nasir-Pal claims that this king captured the city of
Damdamusa
>
> >and
> >> >> killed 600 of their warriors, burned 3,000 captives with fire, and
> did
> >> not
> >> >> leave a single one of the inhabitants alive. He took Hulai, their
> >> >governor,
> >> >> flayed him, and then spread his skin upon the wall of the city.
> >> >>
> >> >> Now here is a question for Randy Bronson. If this is a
historically
> >> >> accurate report of what happen, was Assur-Nasir-Pal's conduct
> >objective
> >> >> immoral?
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >RANDY
> >> >
> >> > Yes.
> >> >
> >>
> >> TILL
> >> Good, maybe we are making some progress now. Here is more of the
> >> inscription, which you can find quoted in Crane Brinton's, *A History
of
> >> Western Morals,* Harcourt, Brace, & Co., p. 48:
> >>
> >> "An 8th-century B. C. inscription on the pavement slabs of the
> >> entrance to the temple of Urta at Nimrud, attributed to King
> >> Assur-Nasir-Pal: "At that time I received tribute of the land of
> >> Isala--cattle, flocks, and wine. To the mountain of Kahiari I crossed
> to
> >> Kinabu, the fortified city of Hulai I drew near. With the masses of my
> >> troops and by my furious battle onset I stormed, I captured the city;
> 600
> >of
> >> their warriors I put to the sword; 3,000 captives I burned with fire;
I
> did
> >> not leave a single one among them alive to serve as a hostage. Hulai,
> >their
> >> governor, I captured alive. Their corpses I formed into pillars; their
> >> young men and maidens I burned in the fire. Hulai, their governor, I
> >> flayed, his skin I spread upon the wall of the city of Damdamusa; the
> city
> >I
> >> destroyed, I wasted with fire....
> >>
> >> "And now AT THE COMMAND OF THE GREAT GODS my sovereignty, my
> >> dominion, my power, are manifesting themselves; I am regal, I am
lordly,
> I
> >> am exalted, I am mighty, I am honored, I am glorified, I am
preeminent,
> I
> >am
> >> powerful, I am valiant, I am lion-brave, and I am heroic. Assur-Nasir-
> Pal,
> >> the mighty king, the king of Assyria, CHOSEN OF SIN, FAVORITE OF ANU,
> >> BELOVED OF ADAD, MIGHTY ONE AMONG THE GODS, I am the merciless weapon
> that
> >> strikes down the land of his enemies..." (emphasis added).
> >> *****************************
> >>
> >> Notice that Assur-Nasir-Pal claimed that these deeds were done at the
> >> "command of the great gods," and that he was "chosen" of these gods to
> >> "strike down the land of his enemies." So if the gods commanded him
to
> do
> >> this things, why would it have been objectively wrong for him to obey?
> >>
> >> I can't wait to see your answer.
> >>
> >
> > RANDY
> >
> > Neither one of us believe in the existence of the gods to which
> >Assur-Nasir-Pal
> >refers. And neither one of us would regard his claim of divine direction
> as
> >a moral
> >justification for his actions. I don't believe I've ever stated
otherwise.
>
> >I think I'm
> >missing what you must consider to be the force of your argument.
> >
>
> TILL
> Whether I or you or anyone else believe in the existence of these Assyrian
> gods is beside the point. Assur-Nasir-Pal believed in them, probably just
> as much as Joshua and Saul believed in Yahweh. So if you contend that
> Assur-Nasir-Pal's massacres described in his inscription were objectively
> immoral but the massacres of Joshua and Saul were objectively moral because
> Yahweh had commanded them, you are begging a question you need to prove.
RANDY
Yes. And the way in which I'm able to prove, or unable to prove, this
question is
what the other thread is about. I don't know why you're bringing up the
question
we're already in the middle of debating in another thread.
TILL
> The only proof you have that Yahweh commanded the massacres of Joshua and
> Saul is the mere fact that someone living in an ancient, superstitious time
> SAID that Yahweh commanded them.
RANDY
Yes. And debating the trustworthiness of the Bible, and whether or not
it's statements
lead to contradictions, is what I thought this list was all about.
TILL
But Assur-Nasir-Pal also said that his
> gods had commanded him to commit the massacres described in his
inscription.
> What's the difference?
RANDY
The difference is what I thought this list was all about.
>
> What is your proof that Yahweh did indeed order those atrocities? I sent a
> posting today about the similarities in the ancient Near Eastern religions.
> I'd like to see your reaction to it and a rational explanation for why we
> should think that of all of the religions at that time, one of them really
> was the true one.
As I mentioned in my response to avatar8, I'm trying to decrease the number
or threads in which I'm involved, not increase them.
Randy Bronson
>
> Farrell Till
> Skepticism, Inc.
> jftill@midwest.net
>