REPOST: Matt and Randy will defend which atrocities?
Farrell Till errancy@infidels.org
Fri, 04 Jun 1999 00:33:29 -0700 (00928499609, 2.2.32.19990604073329.008f5038@midwest.net)
At 08:52 PM 6/3/99 EDT, you wrote:
>> CREA
>> Now, as you can see from the above, David simply carried out the
>command
>> given to him by the LORD and God used this as an opportunity to chastise
>> Israel and lay the blame at David's door (as late in the episode as verse
>> 17, David was taking responsibility for the ensuing calamity) and it took
>> sacrifices and fellowship offerings to bring the plague afflicting all of
>> Israel to an end (as recounted at verse 25). Now, you have gone on record
>> as claiming that "...an individual acting under direct orders from God is
>> justified in his actions. An individual not acting under such orders is
>not
>> justified in his actions", but here we have David acting under direct
>orders
>> from God and ending up NOT justified in his actions and having to atone for
>> his purported misdeeds. So which is it? Was David, as acting under the
>> direct command of God, justified in taking a census or not?
>
>RANDY
>
> Hello Joseph!
>
> It seems that this objection is entirely dependent on the translation
>chosen. I checked the three standard translations with which I am most
familiar >and they all indicate that the words attributed to God by Today's
English Version >were spoken by David. If I recall correctly, the TEV is a
looser translation than >the NASB, the
>KJV, or the NJKV(the translations I checked.) I would be inclined to trust
>those three as opposed to the TEV. What do you think?
TILL
The translation of the Jewish publication society says, "The anger of the
LORD again flared up against Israel; and He incited David against them,
saying, 'Go and number Israel and Judah." Young's Literal Translation says,
"And the anger of Jehovah addeth to burn against Israel, and [an adversary]
moveth David about them, saying, 'Go number Israel and Judah.'" The words
"an adversary" are in brackets, because in Young's translation, they were
italicized to indicate that they are not in the Hebrew text. In other
words, Young inserted an unmentioned adversary into the text to make it seem
to say what it didn't say. If these words are omitted, the literal
translation has Yahweh saying, "Go number Israel and Judah."
An honest look at the text will show that it is unlikely that the writer
intended for readers to understand that David had said these words.
>2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of Yahweh was kindled against Israel, and he
incited David against them, saying, "Go, count the people of Israel and Judah."
>2 So the king said to Joab and the commanders of the army, who were with
him, "Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beer-sheba, and take
a census of the people, so that I may know how many there are."
>
Now if verse one really meant that Yahweh incited or moved David to say, "Go
number Israel and Judah," then the text has David saying this twice, once in
the first verse and then again in the second verse. A more reasonable
interpretation is that Yahweh incited David against Israel by saying, "Go
count the people of Israel and Judah," and then upon having heard Yahweh say
this to him, he then repeated the command to Joab, "Go through all the
tribes of Israel... to take a census of the people...." If not, why not?
In other words, I am saying that your interpretation puts an unlikely, if
not ridiculous, slant on the text.
Furthermore, what difference does your quibble really make? If Yahweh
"moved" or "incited" David to say, "Go number Israel and Judah," then
obviously this was what Yahweh wanted him to do. So you still have to
explain why Yahweh incited David to say that Israel and Judah should be
numbered and then got angry because David did what Yahweh had moved him to say.
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@midwest.net