A comment
David Lee errancy@infidels.org
Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:47:55 -0400 (00929072875, 003101beb393$4a813a20$9d5c74cc@ronies)
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Tyler <etyler@truman.edu>
To: <errancy@infidels.org>; <errancy@infidels.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: Re: A comment
> At 10:08 PM 6/10/99 +0200, David Korn wrote:
> >At 03:01 PM 6/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >>>TILL
> >>>I don't conduct private correspondence, so I am posting this on an
internet
> >>>list.
> >>>
> >>>Your experience proves nothing. There are people whose lives have been
> >>>dramatically changed by adopting belief in Islam, Hinduism,
Zoroastrianism,
> >>>Scientology, New Age-ism, etc., etc., etc.
> >>
> >>Jason:
> >>
> >>What do you mean "it proves nothing"? If God, that is Jesus Christ, is a
> >>personal God and He acts on a personal level, as well as public then yes
it
> >>does. It might not prove it to *you* specifically because it's not your
> >>experience, but it does prove that God (if existing...) does work in
> >>individual lives.
> >>
> >>Till
> >>
> >>>You suggest that you were homeless for 12 years, so I would suspect
that your conversion resulted from experiences that you had at homeless
shelters maintained by Christian organizations. Your conversion very likely
resulted from an emotional
feeling of gratitude, but had you had experiences with shelters maintained
by Islamic organizations, you would now be praising Allah for saving your
life and keeping you out of prison.
DAVE
What Till says above is true. I too was homeless for a long period of
time. I traveled the country and had the "opportunity" to receive help from
various missions and shelters in my time on the streets. The vast majority
were Christian run organizations (a few were secular). There were different
flavors of Christianity represented (Pentecostal, Baptist, Catholic, United
Methodist, Salvation Army, etc). Many of these shelters would help street
people find employment and connect them with a support system to help them
get started. They did a good service although they were not usually willing
to help you quite as much if you were unwilling to "convert" to their way of
seeing things. When one receives help that gets him (or her) off the streets
and into a job there is a deep sense of gratitude that accompanies this.
This gratitude toward the mission is directed toward God.
I was helped by a baptist mission in Atlanta in the summer of 1987. For
years I had traveled the streets and used missions sparingly. My background
in the Worldwide Church of God (ten years) had caused me to consider these
well intentioned people as working for Satan. I actually liked some of the
people I met at these missions but considered them pagan so I would often
refuse to accept their help because I knew they would expect me to attend
their (pagan) Sunday keeping churces and possibly hook me up with a Sunday
keeping pagan employer that attended one of the churches that supported the
mission. I knew I could not be true to my Sabbath keeping beliefs (and
refusal to eat pork products, even when I was starving). Anyway, after 2.5
years removed from my Worldwide Church of God indoctrination I was becoming
less certain about the teachings I had received in the WCG and was becoming
more friendly to the idea of receiving help from the baptist run mission in
Atlanta. After a serious incident I was checked into the mission and
recovered my health. During my stay there I reevaluated my beliefs and
listened to the indoctrination from the Baptist side. After I was "better"
they helped me find employment with Charles Stanley's First Baptist Church.
They even helped me find an apartment that I shared with a Christian
roommate. I held that job for over a year. I *do* understand the deep sense
of gratitiude one can feel for the help these people offer. However, I
*know* many of these missions are unwilling to help those who refuse to
convert to their views on religion. Atheists are out of luck (obviously),
and even some Sabbatarians are out of luck. I remember well a mission in
Norfolk, Va that was willing to help me find a job until they found out I
was a Sabbatarian that would not compromise my beliefs. They then turned me
away. They thought it awful that I would not agree to work on the Sabbath. I
obviously did not want work bad enough. At that time I was still fully
dedicated to the view that the Sabbath was binding and to work on it was to
invite serious spiritual trouble.
Anyway, when I began to question some of my beliefs in the spring and
summer of 1989 I began to encounter some hostility from my Christian
"brother's". It wasn't serious hostility, not at first. They would try to
"comfort" me with the traditional answers that one can find in apologetical
works by Josh McDowell and Gleason Archer but when I did not just "roll
over" and accept those answers but countered with objections to their pat
answers they became a little ruffled and began to question my motives and
character. They would then try to answer my objections but I would then
counter with something else. They would then show anger and frustration. I
had two friends hang up on me after asking me not to contact them again. All
I wanted was *answers* to my questions. Many Christians expect that if you
give an answer to a troubling question that should settle it. There should
be no further questions or rebuttals. An "honest and meek" heart will just
accept the answers and not try to argue. This may satisfy some but it deeply
troubled me. If someone does NOT accept the pat answers offered by
Christians then it is automatically assumed that person is not really honest
and seeking the truth. He just wants to argue. It may seem that way to a
true believer for the simple reason that he (or she) finds those answers
satisfying so then should the doubter. If the doubter rejects the answers
the true believer finds satisfying then it can mean only one thing: The
doubter is really trying to justify a sin or just wants to be spiteful.
Almost all my great (so-called) friends began to show signs of anger and
frustration at my persistent questions. (I had a lot of them, to be sure,
and since they occupied much of my waking hours I felt compelled to ask them
a lot if the opportunity presented itself). I was aware (even then) that had
a skeptic or a cult member (like a JW or Mormon) persistently asked
questions that implied he was thinking about becoming a fundamentalist and
abandoning his current positon he would not have been chided for asking so
many questions. But I was villified for asking so many. I was simply asking
the wrong ones. My doubts finally grew so large and I was losing so many
friends I finally left the church and my job in the fall of 1989. There were
other factors too (probably magnified by the turmoil I was going through)
but once I left I felt clean. I knew I had made the right decision. I did
work as a volunteer for a N.C. rescue mission for a few weeks after that
but I was only trying to do some good and make a difference in the life of
others. I finally had to leave it as well too as the religious factor caused
some difficulties. I do understand that missions do help people and that one
can easily think it is GOD that helps them. But I grew to realize that
wasn't the case. And please Jason, no sermons. I've heard them all. And no,
it wasn't drugs or alcohol that caused me to live on the streets, or any
other immoral thing. It was something else altogether that is no one's
business but my own. So don't ask.
David Lee