The Testimony of the 3 and 8 Witnesses to the BoM

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POOBAH (past)
And how is it that you know that the Bible is accurate in matters of
numismatics?

Matthew Bell
Because the coins the Bible speak of (e.g. denarius, shekel) have been
unearthed by the archaeologists spade. Try finding any coinage mentioned in
the BoM (senine of gold; senum of silver; a seon, shum, and limnah of gold;
an amnor, ezrom, and onti of silver; a shiblom; a leah, an ation of gold,
see Alma 11:1-20).

POOBAH
Just so you can't use it later on, I'll respond as a Mormon apologist for a
moment. Just because we haven't found the coins doesn't mean they don't
exist. I don't know if that's how they would answer this complaint, but
since I have heard such an apology for the lack of Semite people in the
Americas, I doubt its too far off.

I mention this, of course, because I will want to focus in particular on the
Exodus later on, and I want to deny you such an excuse.

POOBAH (past)
If you say archeology and or examination of historical texts,
I'm going to point out that archeology also shows that the
world is older than six thousand years,

Matthew Bell
This would only speak against Young Earth Creationists, and not apply to
Old Earth Creationists, or Theistic Evolutionists. The first of these of
course would disagree with your statement that archaeology does show the
world to be older that 6000 yrs old, and indeed would attempt to use the
same material archaeologists have to support their conclusions. Your point
would have no reference to the other two groups.

POOBAH
For the first of these, I would reply then that you have no evidence that
the coins you have unearthed are really shekels & denarii. If you reject the
theoretical foundations of archeology that both allow us to date artifacts
and determine the age of the earth, then you cannot say there is
archeological evidence that the coins you have are really of the proper age.
It cuts both ways, you can't pick & choose your evidence.

For the latter two categories, inerrancy is not a possibility, at least not
an honest one.

Why don't you tell us where you fall, Matt, so we can deal with specifics?

POOBAH (past)
...that there was no flood four thousand years ago,

Matthew Bell
See above.

POOBAH
And above. This one in particular; if you reject the evidence & theory
behind the dating that shows us that civilizations throughout the world have
been in continuous existence long past four thousand years ago, then I don't
understand how you can say that archeology proves anything.

For the record, Matt, is this your position? Would you care to give us a
date for the flood and reconcile it with archeological evidence?

POOBAH (past)
... the pyramids were not granaries,

Matthew Bell
The Bible mentions pyramids where?

POOBAH
My mistake; medieval thought held that the pyramids were the granaries of
Joseph, but you are correct that they aren't mentioned in Genesis. Mea
culpa.

POOBAH (past)
...there is no evidence of an exodus, no evidence of
Solomon or his Temple, no evidence for Darius the Mede,
nor was he the conqueror of Babylon, Balthazzar was not
the son of Nebechanezzar, no evidence for an empire-wide
census, no evidence of the slaughter of the innocents, no
evidence for the "darkness over the land" and the earthquake,

Matthew Bell
The above are all matters of discussion and debate on lists like this.
Indeed if you look at Josh Livingstone's recent post you will see what he
terms, 'weak' extra biblical evidence for the darkness over the land. The
matters are only concluded in the delusional minds of errantists like
Farrell Till and yourself.

POOBAH
That last statement is a rather backwards way of saying the matters are only
concluded in the minds of everyone but the tiny fraction of the population
who considers the Bible to be inerrant, and that the vast majority of the
population is delusional.

Do you have any evidence for Solomon or his Temple? Please present it.

Do you know of any scholar of the Near East (who is not a conservative
Christian) that accepts that Darius the Mede was the conqueror of Babylon?
Who rejects the Assyrian evidence that Balthazar wasn't even related to
Nebechanezzar? These matters have been settled some time ago to everyone's
satisfaction but those who need the book of Daniel to be correct.

What evidence is there fore an empire-wide census? The slaughter of the
innocents?

As for the darkness over the land & crucifixion earthquake, I think it is a
serious misreading to assert that this is nothing more than a cloudy day.
The text makes it clear that this is an extraordinary event; I'll concede it
could have been an unusually thick cloud cover, but that with the
combination of an earthquake makes the fact that there is no other mention
of it very suspect... Unless of course you're going to pull the excuse I
gave for the coins above.

And then let's talk about the Exodus. I remember Till recently quoting the
conclusions of an Israeli-sponsored archeological expedition that spent ten
years in the Sinai, who uncovered 6000 year-old campfires from nomads, and
absolutely no evidence of a 40-year sojourn by 2+ million people. These are
hardly "delusionally minded errantists." Till is away, but I'm sure he can
post the cite on Monday. How can you possibly deny this evidence without
resorting to the excuse I gave for the Book of Mormon above?

POOBAH (past)
If we find that a book gets its historical details right, that still doesn't
move us beyond the level of a John Grissham novel.

Matthew Bell
If you have a book where none or little of the historical details are right
you are still in the region of science fiction or fairy tales. Taken with
all the other evidence against the BoM and mormonism there is no comparison
between it and Christianity.

POOBAH
Forgive me for saying I don't think you've demonstrated that yet.

But getting back to this point of historical details; since he gets most of
his historical details right, do you accept the miraculous claims of
Josephus? What about Seutonius? Tacitus? Do you live in a world where
Alexander the Great was born of a virgin, angels came down to escort the
soul of Caesar, where emperors heal blind men by spitting on them, where
goats give births to calves (or is the other way around)? Why or why not?

POOBAH (past)
Where we have miraculous claims in the Bible, where do we have evidence for
them?

Matthew Bell
And just what would constitute evidence for miracle?

POOBAH
You tell me. I can tell you what won't constitute evidence, and that's
absolutely nothing. And that's what we have for Biblical miracles.

Unless of course you present some.

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