A comment
M. T. Hollingshead errancy@infidels.org
Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:06:45 -0700 (00898088805, 35877914.72E4C79D@lvcm.com)
Ed Tyler wrote:
> At 07:20 PM 6/16/99 -0400, Derek Pomery wrote:
> >> >> > > > > > STB
> >> >> > > > > > What if someone experienced an encounter? Say a miracle?
> >> What if I
> >> >> > > > told
> >> >> > > > > > you I had a degenerative disease in my bones and was healed?
> >> And the
> >> >> > > > > > bone actually shrank back in its place. That was observable
> >> by numerous
> >> >> > > > > > family, friends and doctors. I prayed that God would heal me.
> >> Why me?
> >> >> > > > > > Don't know. But he did.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Dave G.
> >> >> > > > Are you claiming physicians know all there is to know about human
> >> >> > > > physiology?
> >> >> > > > If the answer is no, then your experience means nothing.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > If you DO believe we (science) know all, then why do we
> continue to
> >> >> > > > search?
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > RYAN
> >> >> > > > Dave, it sounds like you offer no other 'end state' for
> >> determining whether
> >> >> > > > a medical miracle can occur, other than to assert that we know all
> >> about
> >> >> > > > human physiology, and to find that a particular instance does not
> >> fit our
> >> >> > > > (perfect, complete, etc.) model. I seriously doubt man will
> >> *ever* fully
> >> >> > > > understand his own physiology. Aside: which, BTW, would be
> >> exactly what I
> >> >> > > > would expect a created being would be able to learn/comprehend
> >> about his own
> >> >> > > > 'createdness'.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Dave G.
> >> >> > > I ask for a "perfect & complete" model for a reason. If even the
> >> >> > > slightest possibility of a natural recovery exists, then no one can
> >> >> > > reasonably claim
> >> >> > > it was a miracle.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > > What other form of evidence would you accept for a medical
> >> miracle, other
> >> >> > > > than the above line of reason?
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Dave G.
> >> >> > > I would accept the following: 1) Complete regeneration of an
> amputated
> >> >> > > arm, leg or head. Documented before and after, of course.
> >> >> > > 2) reanimation of a corpse long dead and decayed.
> >> >> > > 3) reanimation of a person chopped to bits, and then reforming a
> >> >> > > complete
> >> >> > > and healthy body.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > These examples are extreme, but would hold water for me. I'm not
> >> asking
> >> >> > > too much of an all powerful god, am I?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > DEREK
> >> >> > A comment. The complete regeneration of a limb does seem extreme, but
> >> you
> >> >> > might have to remove it from your test in a few years. Humans have
> some
> >> >> > partial regenerative capability, and studies into how to activate
> it into
> >> >> > adulthood have shown some progress. My younger brother, for
> example, was
> >> >> > an extremely accident prone youth. Not only did he run his left hand
> >> >> > through a bread roller at a bakery, (granted he was being made to
> work
> >> >> > the machine at the age of eight, the SDA commune having nothing
> against
> >> >> > child labor) resulting in permanently flattened knuckles, but a few
> years
> >> >> > prior he snipped off part of one finger at the first joint. He was
> only
> >> >> > four or five at the time. It grew back.
> >> >>
> >> >> Dave G.
> >> >> partial regeneration of appendages is not unknown with developing
> >> >> children, but not known (to my knowledge) to occur later in life.
> >> >> Regeneration of a part of a finger hardly constitutes a miracle and does
> >> >> not meet the requirement I listed above. If an entire functional finger
> >> >> regenerated on an adult, I would be impressed.
> >> >> A hand or arm would be even more impressive.
> >> >
> >> >DEREK
> >> >Agreed, and the phenomenon has a perfectly natural explanation. I was
> >> >just mentioning the fact that some research into regeneration had been
> >> >showing promise lately.
> >>
> >> Ed
> >>
> >> I curious as to why the accounts of regeneration are not being questioned
> >> with a little more sternness?
> >>
> >> You can go to Lourdes and see all sorts of crutches, braces, and canes, all
> >> left their by people who were healed at the place. But you don't find any
> >> artificial limbs.
> >
> >DEREK
> >There's even a hospital just across from the shrine. There were no
> >miracles the day we visited, unfortunately. I would have loved to have
> >gotten some details from one of the "cured"
> >
> >
> Ed
>
> Me too. There are a plethora of such "cures" in folk healing traditions
> across the globe and there is no question that the healings attributed to
> Jesus are based upon these commonplace events. But regeneration of limbs
> is not among the healings that happen at the hands of practitioners of folk
> medicine.
Tim
Sorry to drop out of lurk mode to simply post an off-topic note, but I recall a
show a while back that attempted to look up some of the folks "healed" at
Lourdes. If I recall correctly, they found that while people will normally have a
spontaneous remission from cancer of say 1 per 1000(guessing at figure they used),
the folks that had visited Lourdes showed a remission rate much lower than would
be expected. I believe the comment was made that those folks would have had a
better chance of having been "healed" while laying on their couch at home. I wish
I could recall the show. Sorry.