OBIDOS ANSWERS TILL
Bruce Monson errancy@infidels.org
Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:41:43 -0600 (00930357703, 1.5.4.32.19990625194143.006e9354@pop.pipeline.com)
OBIDOS
Now that the high tension is low in the atmosphere I can continue my
refutation to Farrel Till's rebuttal. In doing this, I want to be fair and
simple in my answers. This is my analysis to his problem:
DEUTERONOMY 9:3-6 - How could it be possible that the promise about the
land is conditional since it is clearly mentioned here that it is not
because of their own righteousness that they will inherit this land?
ANSWER: Moses here is anticipating the Israelites victory over their
enemies in the land of Canaan by saying:"Do not say in your heart when the
LORD your God has driven them out before you, 'Because of my righteousness
the LORD has brought me in to possess this land'(NASB). The NIV renders the
first part "After the LORD your God has driven them out before you". Moses
really didn't know anything what will eventually take place after he uttered
this words in the hearing of the Israelites. He is most assured by the
fulfillment of this promise by his knowledge of Yahweh's oath to their
ancient forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But it doesn't mean that
Moses is not aware of the conditional aspect of this promise. In earlier
chapter which is Deut 7 in vss. 7, 8 he reveals the real reason behind the
Israels being a chosen nation, " The LORD did not set His love on you nor
choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples for you
were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the
oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a
mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of
Pharaoh king of Egypt." The conditional aspect of this promise is uttered
by Moses in v.12 by saying:" Then it shall come about, because you listen to
these judgments and keep and do them that the LORD your God will keep with
you His covenant and His lovingkindness which He swore to your forefathers."
NIV gives a more clear rendition, "IF you pay attention to these laws and
are careful to follow them, THEN the LORD you God will keep His covenant of
love with you, as He swore to your forefathers." In Deut. 8:1 the same idea
is repeated "All the commandments that I am commanding you today you shall
be careful to do THAT you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the
land which the LORD swore to give to your forefathers." Therefore Moses
knows what he is saying, he didn't contradict himself as what the skeptics
alledged he is doing. But in case they keep God's laws and eventually
inherit the Promise Land they are forewarned beforehand that it is not
because of their attitude it is because of their God's oath to their
forefathers! Since the Israelites didn't inherit ALL the land because of
their unfaithfulness it doesn't mean that Yahweh's oath to their forefathers
failed! Yahweh didn't failed at all ! the literal Israelites failed
eventhough those few faithful ones experienced the partial fulfillment of
this promise, God still holds on to His oath by passing this promise to the
spiritual Israelites which is the CHURCH! Galatians 3:13, 29 reads: "In
order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the
Gentiles so that we might receive the promise of the spirit through faith."
"And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs
according to promise." Therefore this promise still continues through this
clear words from Hebrews 11:13, 16: All these died in faith, without
receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from
the distance, and having cofessed that they were strangers and exiles on the
earth.' "But as it is, they desire a better country that is the heavenly
one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has
prepared a city for them."
BRUCE
Is it just me or is Obidos contradicting himself here? It seems as though
he is stating that the land promise was *both* conditional AND unconditional.
"Since the Israelites didn't inherit ALL the land because
of their unfaithfulness it doesn't mean that Yahweh's OATH
TO THEIR FOREFATHERS failed!" (my emphasis)
Would someone please point out to me where in the Bible God says, "ok chosen
ones, here is the deal: if you guys don't break ANY rules you will get ALL
the land, just as I promised your forefathers. But, if you break the rules
don't worry yourself too much because I will still give you 'some of the
land,' just not all of it."
Moreover, Mr. Obidos further applies a double-standard with the following:
"...the literal Israelites failed even though THOSE FEW
FAITHFUL ONES experienced the partial fulfillment of this
promise,..." (my emphasis)
Now this is just making Yahweh wishy-washy isn't it? Essentially God would
be saying, "ok, you guys over there screwed up, but you guys over here were
good so what I'm going to do is 'partially' fulfill my promise to your
forefathers and give you 'some' of the land." (my emphasis) But look at
what this says about Yahweh's reaoning:
(1) Some of you were bad, but don't worry about it because I'm still going
to reward you with some land (and in the process wipe out hundreds of
thousands of innocent men, women, and children; sometimes saving the virgin
women for yourselves to use as you please).
(2) Some of you were good. However, rather than killing off all of those
disobedient doofs who failed to comprehend that my promise to your
forefathers was CONDITIONAL to obedience, I am going to give you the same
deal as the bad ones: you will receive 'some' of the land, but not all of it
(and in the process wipe out hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women,
and children; sometimes saving the virgin women for yourselves to use as you
please). If some of the Israelites were obedient, then why not give them
ALL the land, as per the promise?
The last straw, however, comes when Obidos makes the "convenient" jump from
strict literalistic interpretation to metaphorical gymnastics by suggesting
that the land promise is actually fullfilled "spiritually" through the Church:
Deut 7 in vss. 7, 8 "... but because the LORD loved you AND
kept the oath which He SWORE to your forefathers..."
"...God still holds on to His oath by passing this promise
to the spiritual Israelites which is the CHURCH!"
This implies that the promise was UNCONDITIONAL, or at least had an escape
clause, since Obidos is ultimately having the promise "fulfilled" in spite
of all the bad, undeserving, "behavior" by the Israelites which caused them
NOT to get all their land while on Earth in the first place. And, of
course, he has to bring Jesus into the picture to try and accomplish this,
even though there is no mention of the Christ Jesus anywhere in the OT. Nor
is there any evidence that the land promise makes any indication about
"some" land being given "physically on Earth" and the rest of it being given
"spiritually in Heaven."
Am I missing something here?
CONCLUSIONS:
(1) If the land promise was unconditional, as Till has succinctly
demonstrated (not to mention that it is the accepted understanding purported
by major theological scholars), then there is indeed a contradiction within
scripture, in that the promise was never fullfilled.
(2) If the land promise was conditional (as our inerrantists suggest), and
the bible is to be taken "literally," then there can be no "fullfillment" of
the land promise either physically on Earth or spiritually in heaven,
because they [Israelites] "literally" failed in their adherence to the
alleged "conditions" of the promise. This means NO land either now or
ever...Game Over!
To imply that, through Jesus, the Israelites were forgiven and the land
promise fulfilled spiritually, then God has STILL contradicted himself by
his failure to stand firm to the "conditions" he laid out for the land promise.
(3) If inerantists must resort to creative allegorical solutions to
literalistic problems with scripture, then it begs the question as to what
other alleged "history" in the bible is not literally true? What are we to
think of grandeurous events portrayed in the Bible which cannot be
corroborated anywhere else but the bible; that is, the Bible and more
ancient Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, and other religion/mythology.
Yours in Truth,
Bruce Monson